Line Your Own Pockets

Michael: 00:00

Okay, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Line Your Own Pockets. We got a spicy potentially spicy episode today. We're gonna talk about both me and Dave, in particular, and us no longer being a part of Trade Ideas, and and kind of what happened there. And, more importantly, if you've been a follower of me, you've probably already seen the video that I put out.

Michael: 00:22

So I'm gonna be grilling Dave on all the juicy details. So, so stay tuned. You can you can, put aside one of your Netflix drama shows today and and and just watch line your own pockets instead. At least that's what I hope will happen. I'm hearing a lot of the story for the first time as well, so I think this will be cool.

Michael: 00:40

So, Dave, welcome to the unemployment line.

Dave: 00:44

Yeah. I'm happy to be here. Yeah. So I saw your video, a couple weeks ago. I thought it was great.

Dave: 00:53

And I've talked to several of my traders, several of the traders on my newsletter about, the move I made. So I thought and there's been enough questions. In fact, you asked me a question about this recently. Yeah. And I was like, okay.

Dave: 01:08

Well, well, let me just tell why don't we just do a podcast about this? And and I I'm uncomfortable doing a podcast about me. Like, this podcast is about how to be a better trader. So this is this is a onetime departure from that, where kinda I'm in the spotlight.

Michael: 01:28

You mean the next one's not gonna be, like, us showing our dog pictures and that kind of stuff and just here's the animals we have? Now what I would do, I would get started first for the people who don't know, you know, the the history. Like, how long have you been at trade ideas? What do you do there? There might be some people who had just no idea.

Michael: 01:47

Start with that, and then we'll get to the we'll get to the juicy stuff.

Dave: 01:51

Yeah. So way back when I left corporate America and started, a company called StockTicker, and that was the very first online trading journal. This was a long time ago. I I knew it was a tool that I needed to trade well. I needed this tool, so I made a business out of it.

Dave: 02:12

Trade Ideas ended up, buying that company, and I came on to work at Trade Ideas in 2011. So I I was there for a long time. That's a long time. I was, fundamental in creating almost all the things you see in Trade Ideas, the odds maker, Ollie, charts.

Michael: 02:40

Well, and and

Dave: 02:41

Ice alerts. One thing Almost everything you see in there is was created by me.

Michael: 02:47

Well, and one big important thing that I think you kinda glossed over a bit is that at stock ticker, you had you were starting to build, like, trading bots. Even way back then, I remember I had or I bought the, Sterling, and it would connect one thing to the other. And this is way before trade ideas had any functionality to to auto trade or to push anything anything through it. So, I just wanted to point that out just to show how long ago, not to date you or anything, but how long ago you were thinking about building things to trade for you so that you you wouldn't trade yourself. So that was part of that other company before you even got started at trade ideas.

Dave: 03:24

True. Yeah. So and that's what turned into BrokeragePlus at Trade Ideas. All that came from tools that I've created for myself to create and vary with various forms of automation. Mhmm.

Dave: 03:37

So at some point, this is probably 3 or 4 years ago, I came to the realization

Michael: 03:48

So 3 to 4 years ago, we're talking 2020. Right? Just in case someone's watching this 10 years from now. Right? So pandemic era.

Dave: 03:55

Yeah. So I I came to the realization that the direction that Trade Ideas was going was different than the people I wanted to help. The the traders that I interact with and that I work with and that I am are traders that, like, we have to trade. We're it's a core part of our being. We're not hobbyists, And the people that I work with and the people that I help the most are people that they they have a very innate, reverence for the markets, and they have to trade.

Dave: 04:34

This is what they do.

Michael: 04:36

Mhmm.

Dave: 04:37

And it became clear to me that I think I was the only one like that at Trade Ideas. Everybody sort of made occasional trades, but there were no real traders that had to do it and that were constantly thinking about it. And

Michael: 04:55

And you mean in the in the upper echelon, let's just say, the the decision makers, I guess. Right? Because a lot of I know the support staff and and that kind of stuff are more. But But you're talking about the guys who guys who pulled the buttons of of what was gonna get worked on next. They weren't as focused anymore on actually learning to or building up trading things with edge is is kinda what you're saying there.

Dave: 05:20

Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell by the, you know, just the marketing direction they were taking that they were going after a different trader than I thought was appropriate. Right? I, it became very clear to me that the direction was not optimal.

Dave: 05:44

Let's just put it that way. So I realized that so so at some point in that time, I realized I'm gonna have to leave. And I'd never thought I I thought I would be working for Trade Ideas forever. I mean, I I loved what I was doing there. I know I was creating a lot of tools that actually help traders trade well.

Dave: 06:14

And and I hear I still hear from traders today that they rely on trade ideas in a way that like, they ask me, hey. What happens if trade ideas goes away? Like, I know that I'm vulnerable here with my strategies because I use trade ideas to, for strategies they trade. So it became clear to me that the direction of trade ideas, they were going after a different customer, so I knew I had to leave. So okay.

Dave: 06:47

Well, what do I what do I wanna do? And another thing became very clear to me as I was thinking through this. I have so much I I could tell that I I was trading. My strategies were doing well, making money, most every month. But I knew that if I could focus on my trading, I could be doing a lot better.

Dave: 07:16

Yeah. That was and I had you know, I I didn't I just had that feeling. I I knew that to be the case. So that became clear that that was gonna be one of the ways that leaving would be a big payoff. So the other thing I was thinking about is, you know, throughout my whole career, I I've been on this mission, and I didn't really couldn't really clarify it until I started thinking about it.

Dave: 07:49

I'm on a mission to create the most trading edge in the world that I can through my own trading and through the traders that I coach and help. And it became clear to me that Trade Ideas was not the way to do that, the direction that it was going. Mhmm. So I I knew that if I just put in a 2 week notice that that wasn't gonna be good for trade ideas. I always wanted to leave it in the best place that I possibly could leave it in.

Dave: 08:25

So I talked to the CEO, Dan, about it probably

Michael: 08:33

16 months ago, couple years ago. So that's a that's a big leap from so 2020 was when you were, like, okay. These things are starting. And then 16 months ago would be 2023 ish. Probably.

Michael: 08:50

Yeah. It'd be so for those 3 years, it was just about, you're trying to, you know, figure out what's next, thinking about all of those different okay. Because that makes sense. It's a big move. As you said, you're there for, you know, 10 years or so.

Michael: 09:05

So, you know, to to to make a a big move like that, it just takes and I I just wanted to kinda point that out for the audience too that this wasn't just something that, you know, you you flipped over your desk one day because someone said a bad word to you. Right? That's that's a lot of thought and and, introspection that went into into that.

Dave: 09:23

Yeah. And I'm I'm not someone to make rash decisions. I probably take too long to make decisions sometimes, I'm sure. So so if this is something that I really wanted to think about because I loved I loved trade ideas. I still I still love trade ideas.

Dave: 09:39

I still use trade ideas. So, it was just a big decision I really wanted to think through. You know, a lot of people don't think about day traders as overly cautious, but I I definitely feel like I'm overly cautious sometimes. Mhmm. So I I mentioned it to Dan that I wanted to go part time, and he didn't react so positively that first, when we first had the conversation.

Dave: 10:15

So but but over the next course of the next few weeks, we had some other conversations and, figured out a way to to allow me to leave that would leave the company in a good spot. And we've definitely done that. Mhmm. I left in April. And, you know, again, totally on my terms.

Dave: 10:40

This this is my was my choice the whole time. And I I got instant confirmation that this is the right move because my trading as soon as I was able to focus more on it, my trading was started going great. I could that was just confirmation that what I I had faked that that was gonna happen, but I wasn't sure. Mhmm. But right away, my trading from that point forward went up big time.

Dave: 11:11

So

Michael: 11:12

Well, let's And let's zoom in on that a little bit just because I think that'll be interesting for the audience as someone who is, like, fully automated. Right? Sometimes, you know, you join this call. We're in the green room. Dave's like, I sent out a 100 orders today, and then just shuts everything down and and moves on.

Michael: 11:26

So, I think a lot of people would assume, oh, he has now more time to stare at the screen as opposed to, you know, the code base for trade ideas or something like that. But that's obviously not what you're doing. Right? You send your orders and and you move on with your life. So what do you think was the, the either freedom of mind or freedom of time that you like, where do you allocate that in order that you saw that big jump kinda right away?

Michael: 11:53

I think that'll be interesting.

Dave: 11:58

I believe that the the biggest benefit was just the the slice of my mind that I could devote to trading or that I couldn't before. Like, there was all sorts of fires to put out all the time and trade ideas, this and that. So that was always taking up the vast majority of my mind, especially, you know, lots of people reporting to me. I ran the whole tech organization. So that's there's a 1,000 things to be thinking about all the time when the buck stops with you for on the tech side.

Dave: 12:32

So And especially Just not having to do that, like, I could I could sit around and mull over strategies that I was trading. Stuff that I had on my to do list, I could think about prioritizing them in the right way and figuring out the best thing to work on next. So and, you know, how to scale up certain strategies. I mean, it was just so much more things to think about. And the people that I, had started coaching also, you know, immediately, I I was able to work with them to help them come up with strategies much quicker than they were before.

Dave: 13:07

So the it was it was, like, almost instant gratification that that that the the choice I made was right.

Michael: 13:14

Well and I just wanted to hit on that because a lot of people might be, might have been wondering, and and I pretty much knew that was gonna be your answer. Because, again, a lot of what we do, especially as systematic traders, is between the ears. Right? It's a lot of and and you only have so much mental capital to expend each day. So if you're doing a lot of little things in your life, like Dave was, where, you know, you've got 10 people or something to report to when you're building these things, what happens is, you know, maybe you're starting to think about something and then something pulls you away, then you're starting and then something pulls you away.

Michael: 13:48

So I just wanted to kinda do that. And and for people, obviously, you know, most people can't leave their job like that. But are there a bunch of little things that you could maybe silence for a period of time or or cut out or or reduce and that would that would be be focused? Because it it has been the same with me when they, when I left trade ideas as well. It just it was, not that I, you know, I know now I have 8 hours a day to do.

Michael: 14:12

It wasn't so much of the time. It was the, you know, the little pinging of Slack notifications and, you know, oh, I have to go to this meeting and I have to go to that meeting. And just cutting a lot of that out just allowed me to sit and focus on some of the strategies that I had been on the cusp of and and been able to push forward. So, you know, I guess just a takeaway for viewers is if you just have a couple things that you can say, I can you know, even for, like, a week at a time. Say just I'm gonna ignore this for a week at a time or something.

Michael: 14:39

I think that would be a big boon to a lot of people's trading.

Dave: 14:43

Yeah. I think that I felt I fell into a trap, I think, of trying to do too many things, and I could do I I, honestly, I do feel like I have a lot of capacity to do a lot of different things. I'm interested in lots of things, but I I sorta underestimated how effective I could be if I focused on one thing. And without even if I thought I was focusing and even when there's stuff in the back of your mind that you're responsible for, being able to get rid of that and focus like a laser on one thing could be really, really powerful.

Michael: 15:21

Yeah. I think we we dramatically you know, I I think there's a book. I'm trying to see the name. I think it was called, like, the myth of multitasking or something like that. And that was basically the whole premise is that as humans, we think we can do a lot of things, and and it sometimes feels being feeling busy sometimes makes you feel like you're productive when you're oh, yeah.

Michael: 15:44

I had this meeting and that meeting, and I did this thing, and I was over here. And so, yes, I was very busy. Therefore, I had to have been productive. And it it's, you know, quite opposite. Right?

Michael: 15:52

You gotta go back to when we were, like, cave people. I went out. I killed the boar. I brought it home. That's the only thing I had to do is I focused on that and I got that done.

Michael: 16:00

That's a productive day. Me walking to 7 different places wouldn't have have done anything. I think it's the same way when it comes to, our mind now is we have to focus. I I went from I'm a a task person. Every morning, I wake up and I write all my tasks for the day and then I do them.

Michael: 16:17

I found that if there was any more than 3 on there, I got nothing done. So now it's these are the three things that you're focused on today and go from there. I really think that would be huge for a lot of people. And, again, if you can't, you know, if you can't join the unemployment line with us, then, you know, just scheduling some time distraction free, I think, is is huge, again, especially for what we do where systematic trading has a large upfront time commitment, and then it it kinda scales off from there, right, where you gotta come up with a strategy, you gotta test a strategy, you gotta do all that. But then once that strategy is running, you don't need to devote as much time until it's time to come to the next strategy.

Michael: 16:58

So you can work in blocks, I find, if you can write them off. So, you know, maybe on a weekend, go to a Starbucks and put on some noise cancelling headphones or something. But I really think that block out time is very, very important.

Dave: 17:12

Yeah. For sure. And, you know, I I that that's absolutely true. The other thing I think about is, you know, as I was running the whole tech organization there, coming up with all sorts of automation, you know, non trading automation

Michael: 17:31

Mhmm.

Dave: 17:31

To help things run, alerting, having multiple people involved with that. There's a lot to learn there that, you can you can apply to trading. It's not directly related, but there's a lot there to learn that I that I picked up on from doing that that that I'm applying to my trading now. So, yeah, I think there's when you're forced into a situation where you have to get a lot of things done, and like I said before, I have to trade, that was, like, priority number 1, really, throughout this whole process is I am a trader, and that's what I have to do. So doing that, also being the CTO was, tricky, but it it it sort of forces you to find the most efficient way to do things.

Dave: 18:22

And, yeah, my my time there was, excellent.

Michael: 18:26

So, so now that you're unemployed, are we doing, what, 5 episodes a week now? Line your own pockets? What, so what's what's next? What are you doing?

Dave: 18:34

I think once a week is, the right frequency, but but, you know, you bring up a good point.

Michael: 18:39

That's all you can put up with me for is just this one, this one episode a week.

Dave: 18:43

Once a week's enough for you, Michael. But no. It is, I I think that there's a couple things I wanna mention. One is the name of this podcast. I thought a lot about the name of this podcast.

Michael: 18:58

You did. I went back

Dave: 18:59

and forth with you about it. Yep. And there's a real I think the reason I came up with that name is it speaks to the kind of traders that I like working with, and that is the ones I mentioned. They have to trade. They're not hobbyists.

Dave: 19:15

They're not doing this on the weekends. They're not they're not doing this for fun. They're doing it because they have to do it for some reason. They for their livelihood. They're doing it for their income.

Dave: 19:27

This is a guy that I work with. I won't mention his name, but he he is passionate about doing this because he's gonna do he's doing it to help a whole bunch of people in his circle.

Michael: 19:40

Yeah.

Dave: 19:41

And when you have other people relying on you for your trading to to go well, that's a different sort of a different world.

Michael: 19:49

Mhmm.

Dave: 19:49

But line your own pockets. You know? I I just know that a a certain kind of trader out there who wants to do it for themselves. They're not going to a trading room being told what to trade. They're doing it for themselves.

Dave: 20:06

They're coming up with their own strategies because they have to. That's the kind of person that I have always thought would be I always think about as a listener to this podcast. And the reason we call it lie in your own pockets is that I put own in there for for a very specific reason. You're not you're not lining somebody else's pockets through a trading room or paying for their stock picks, paying for their system, whatever. You're lining your own pockets, and that's what I that is the mission that I'm on to help the most number of traders do that and to maximize the trading edge.

Dave: 20:51

I can't remember what I mean, it sounds like a I know it sounds kind of audacious. Probably sounds arrogant. But I, I fully believe that that is the mission I'm on, and I can see every day that I talk to every day to traders that I know that could be a lot better than they are.

Michael: 21:10

Well and the beauty of it is that you have found, a niche. Right? And then it's just for just business talk, I guess, outside of of particular trading talk that and that's what you noticed with trade ideas too. So it all comes down to, when it no niche is bad. Right?

Michael: 21:30

It's not like, you know, if you do this, it's bad. If you do this, it's good or whatever. It's you need to find a niche that makes sense to you just like we talk about trading styles and time frames and horizons that make sense to you, and you have to dive into that. I I think, a big problem occurs when you try to expand outside of that niche. And I think that's what you, and myself also saw with with Trade Ideas, right, is that they went from, I'm gonna focus on this, you know, lightning fast, you know, system where people can build their own thing and then and then go from there, to try and expand that out to the masses.

Michael: 22:03

Right? So, you know, I think it feels good when you find whatever your niche is that whatever business you're gonna open up at. One example I always give for this, which I think is is phenomenal, is have you met, John Carlo? The Yeah. Right?

Michael: 22:17

He was he's he does, all star charts and a whole bunch of, video and and sound and whatever. And he started like most people who are interested in that. So, you know, I'll do wedding photography and this and that and the other thing. And somehow, he got roped into being the guy who puts on, like, finance shows and does, like, finance documentaries and trading, whatever. And he's super successful and super happy at it.

Michael: 22:41

And it's just he took this, love that he had of film and and everything and just got super, super specific with it. So, I'm glad that you found that. And for people out there, even again, in we're talking in the business world, no niche is bad. There's especially with the Internet, there's enough people that if you get really super hyper specific with something, there's still thousands of people that eventually you can reach that are that are interested in that.

Dave: 23:07

Yeah. And there's a great lesson there with trading. A lot of traders will try to spread themselves too thin across different strategy types, different time horizons, different trading styles. It's the lesson there is focus on one thing. Be the best in the world at one thing.

Michael: 23:26

Yep.

Dave: 23:27

And there's, there there's lots you can do with that. And I I see a lot of traders spreading themselves too thin, and that's the opposite of what they should be doing.

Michael: 23:36

I don't know what when we were chatting with because the Steenbarger interview will definitely be out by now. He told you to start looking at some swing trading. So I'm I'm still gonna keep poking that bear till eventually you're, you're an old boomer like me and you're holding things for maybe 2 days, maybe 3 days. That'd be that'd be pretty wild.

Dave: 23:55

Highly unlikely. Highly unlikely.

Michael: 23:58

We'll see. You you time stamp this audience, and and you'll see how many years it takes of me poking the bear until I, until I get them to come in and say, listen. I held a stock for a week, and it was fantastic. So I'm a swing trader now. Who knows?

Michael: 24:12

Doubtful. So that's the story. Is there any kinda wrap up, or is there any final notes you wanna give on that before we before we end it?

Dave: 24:22

I don't think so. I think just the the main point here is I'm really passionate about helping people that wanna help themselves and and want to create their own strategies. That's why I have my newsletter, and that's that's who who I have in mind when I write every I write to that.

Michael: 24:42

So,

Dave: 24:44

yeah. I think that's it.

Michael: 24:47

Well, you can see, both of us on the unemployment line if, if you get there, but I'm just excited because I think that's gonna mean more content. I'll I'll bring it out eventually. We'll, you know, we'll be doing a roadshow. Right? 2 of us will get an old beat up 19 eighties Chevrolet.

Michael: 25:04

We'll just start driving around, see if anyone wants to listen to us rant about systematic trading, sell it

Dave: 25:09

to you. As, you know, as I was making this decision, one of the exercise I did is I said, okay. Let me spend the next 2 days just coming up with ideas to write about and topics for podcast Mhmm. Just to see if that how easy that was gonna be. And immediately, I came up with way more ideas that are were really good ideas that I did not think of before that.

Dave: 25:36

So

Michael: 25:37

Well, I

Dave: 25:37

think a lot of content for this podcast. There's a lot of topics that, we're coming up with. So and then I'm really super excited about.

Michael: 25:45

Well, it's funny because we have a doc of all the things, like, when we got started because we were worried about running it. I don't think we've been in that doc for months just because, like, something always comes up that we just kinda think about on the fly. So I think that works super well. So well, again, thank you everyone for tuning in. Again, I hope this means just more content, from us.

Michael: 26:06

You know? Again, I have a blast doing these. I know people are really enjoying listening to it, and we appreciate all the feedback we get there. And and I'm Michael Noss.

Dave: 26:15

And I'm Dave May. We'll talk to you next week on Line Your Own Pockets.