Should You Turn Off Strategies On Crazy Days?
Alright, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Line Your Own Pockets. Today, we're gonna do something that's a little bit topical, more about what to do in certain scenarios as opposed to the scenario itself. But obviously getting a lot of questions and a lot of discussions, especially in the kind of systematic trading community that when the markets are incredibly volatile, of outside of some sort of volatility norm, what do you do? So just for people, you know, watching this in a hundred years from now, or listening to this from a hundred years now, we're just having a bit of an increase in a bit, a lot of increased volatility due to, you know, tariff talk or whatever, but we could be doing the same podcast during the yen carry unwind or COVID or any number of events.
Michael:So I think it's more important to talk about for the next time or what's gonna have some point eventually happen in the future where there's another big shock event to the market. What do you do as a systematic trader? I think there's gonna be some differences here as, you know, Dave is a day trading degen, I'm a little bit more in longer term action. So for you personally, right, you wake up and the market's down, well it's down like 4% yesterday, do you change what you're doing at all
Dave:or if so, go away? That's a great question. And you're you're right that this is yeah. There's something happening right now, but it could be at any moment. Right?
Dave:You know, there's these things happen. They're infrequent. That's sort of by definition, that's the case. So the first thing I do is I wait for somebody to tell me what the market's doing. I mean, believe it or not, I still don't I don't look at the market when I wake up.
Dave:I don't look at the spy. I kinda have it there, but it's it's like I don't know. It's probably two dozen things on my brain, and, like, it's just an afterthought. I always hear about this from other people first. And you might say, gosh.
Dave:That's crazy. How in the world could you do that? And I'll tell you, I've done this for a long time, and I've specifically designed my strategies so I can do this. And I put a lot of work in upfront, a lot of design decisions so that on days like this, I don't notice and I don't really care that much. So, yeah, it's there's a lot of work you have to do to get to that point, but I like it because, a, I'm lazy.
Dave:We we talked about about that before. You know, programmers often say being lazy is a virtue, and it's totally true. Yep. So, yeah, that's that's part of the reason it's a big part of the reason why I basically ignore the market. So I'm sure you have a different take on this, Michael, so I'm happy to hear it.
Michael:Yeah. Well, for, you know, for people like me who have to hold overnight, right, and then we hold for long periods of time, then then gaps like that are are important. And, you know, we need to kinda keep an eye on everything and and decide what to do. And really, it's one of those those times that I think separates the the great traders from kinda the the ones who never make it. And and what I talk about there is the people who look at markets like this and decide to kinda radically change what we're what you're doing.
Michael:And I I think this is something we're gonna agree a lot on that because you never know what's gonna happen next. If you are changing a strategy off the fly or if you're reacting too hard of what's happening in the market, then you've probably, again, just like you mentioned, designed your systems wrong. So yes, I gotta keep an eye on it, but it's more so to, I guess, brace myself for whatever pain I'm gonna I'm gonna see when the market opens up and I take a look at my account and less so because I'm gonna take action because a day like that has occurred. I've and this is something I think will be interesting to talk about. There's times that I've turned off my system and the markets got down like that and just complete just ripped.
Michael:And if I had followed my system accordingly, I would have gotten triggered in a whole bunch of things on the open. You know, two, three days later, been up a bunch of money because of it. And then there's times that if I had turned off the system, it would have been the right move. But I guess the question that we should mill about is that, you know, how do you know if you did the right thing? If you do end up shutting something down or sidestepping something or at least pausing your trading for a day or so, how do you go back and evaluate to see was that a good move or or or was I just scared?
Dave:Yeah. Good question. And, like, the answer to a lot of questions on this podcast is go back and look at the data. Go back and look at your your back test.
Michael:Yep.
Dave:And if the if the event is rare enough, gonna be hard and harder to go back in time to find an event that's similar. And just by definition of a rare event, not like you can do a backtest and, you know, find hundreds or thousands of instances of the rare event. So just by definition there, you know that these events are going to be unique. Even if they're similar, they're going to be completely different circumstances causing them. And sort of a theoretical discussion about how much really can you, you know, can you compare distinct events?
Dave:So that's one reason I like, you know, finding you know, creating ideas that have tons of events. I don't really have to think about this that much. There are I do remember, I won't do this now, but there was a point in my career where I would do this, I think it's probably worth doing. So I would have my back test in a position and in a format where I could quickly get answers. So I remember one time or I should still do this now.
Dave:I'll add a SPY gap column to the backtest. So I can see, okay, when the SPY gapped a certain amount, how do those trades look? So I can quickly get an answer to that potentially before trades happen, like intraday. And if you're quick enough and your data is modular enough and, you know, you have a good routine for doing it, you can get an answer real fast. And it's probably worth an exercise to do that.
Dave:Like, how quickly could you get an answer if you needed to, like, the next five minutes or even less? You ought to be able to get to the point where you can get a good answer to a question you might have, and that that's probably a good thing to go back after days like this. You know, you couldn't get the data fast enough from your back test. What could you do in the future? What columns can you add to your back test?
Dave:What things could you do to prepare for it so you could get an answer? What are the questions you're gonna want to have answered in future days? Think that's a great exercise to think about.
Michael:I think that's great because that's something again that you could do hopefully if you're up early enough just in the pre market before the time comes. See, you know, in this case, the SPY down 4%, but even the opposite, right? What if the there was a great news and there was a huge gap up in the market? You should be able to go through and and retest your data and look at, okay, what happens if I turned off the system when the the amount was below that? One thing that I really like about doing that, and something that I do a lot for the systems that I run that I have, you know, thirty years plus of back tested data for, I've done that experiments experiment once for the people on my website and said, okay, here's what happens if we kind of removed all of these crazy events.
Michael:And when you're dealing with that much data, sometimes what you find is doesn't really matter in the long run, right, you know, yes, you might have a bad day here or there or in what I found is that a lot of cases sometimes it's just a wash yet sometimes it's a really bad day sometimes really good day and you don't know what's going to happen so you just kind of prepare yourself for both and move on but you know that is that speaking very, you know, mathematically and robotically. One thing I'll say is just more of a human level is if you're that scared and you're that nervous might not be the worst thing in the world just to take the day off. Right? And yes, you go you have to go back and you have to look, but especially if you're new, it might just be the best thing to do for kind of your own mental sanity and then go do a post postmortem and see after the day is done. What would have happened if you had left your systems on?
Michael:And then you have to kind of weigh the potential versus I think the the relief of it. Right? So you come in and and this is mostly for day traders. If you come in, you're a day trader, you see the market down a huge amount. You just go, you know what?
Michael:Gonna go to the beach today. Right? I'm gonna take the day off. I'm gonna go golfing. I'm gonna play with the kids or whatever.
Michael:And you come back and then you realize that, yeah, you would have made a little bit of money if you traded that day. I don't think that's the end of the question. I think the next question is, okay. But would the crazy volatility and the worry that you felt in the morning, would that have been worth doing that and then, you know, having to trade through that? So I think there's a couple questions to answer there.
Dave:Yeah. I think there's those those are great thoughts. Think it's totally valid to just take the day off because, I mean, when you design a system, you by definition, it can't rely on these rare days to be successful. Right? Right.
Dave:It better not. So it's totally valid to, you know, take these outlier days and just throw them out, not trade them. I think the problem is these days are some of the very, very best for the right systems. And you see with the right systems and very good day traders, potential for profit on these days is enormous. So that's what to think about.
Dave:So there's there's a lot of potential on these days, but and you'll probably see some people post on Twitter about how awesome their day was, and
Michael:Yeah.
Dave:You'll feel you might feel bad about it, but that's okay. You shouldn't be looking at other people's P and L anyway.
Michael:Yeah. And, you know, it it's it's always important too when you're a systematic trader. You you remind yourself that you're human as well. I think that's important. Right?
Michael:There's a lot of, you know, emotions running high right now. There's a lot of people that aren't aren't doing too well, you know, self admittedly as a long only swing trader, myself included. But it's kind of how you deal with that, I think is is the biggest thing. And this is where we talk about all the time that that back testing and running systems become so important. Because I can go back and I can look and I can say this what happened to my system in in the year February, '2 thousand and '8, '20 '20, and right every crazy event like this that occurs.
Michael:Okay, well, you know, you take a little bit of a short term hit and then eventually, things adjust and you recover and everything's fine. And that I think is very important as a confidence builder. But if you're not there yet and you don't have that, then, yeah, there's no problem just saying, okay, well, I'm just gonna I'm gonna step away from the market a little bit. I'm gonna just let whatever happens happen, and then I'll come back when when things are better. But the the next important thing is I think that doesn't mean that your job's done.
Michael:Doesn't mean you, you know, you you go to the beach. Right? Go do something in the woods or whatever. Then come back and say, okay. Like Dave mentioned, I gotta test scenarios like this.
Michael:I gotta figure out what happens in scenarios like this. I gotta do whatever it takes to make it so that I have the confidence to say, okay, next time this happens, what am I gonna do? And if it turns out that the answer to all of that is nothing and and you're just gonna walk away for the day, that's fine. But at least you then, I guess, systematize it in some way. You know that if the spy is gapping over x or or under y, then you shut everything down for the day.
Dave:Yeah. So I have to point out here, get a little dig at you about swing trading.
Michael:Okay.
Dave:If you're holding overnight, it's gonna be a lot harder to just wake up and go to the beach the next day. Right? So but day trading, no problem. You could just, on a whim, decide to do something different that day. So, yeah, I just thought I'd get that little dig in.
Michael:Yeah. But I'm gonna disagree a little bit there too, right? Because on just like a day trade on order entry, I've got a stop loss out. I've got a time stop or a profit target, and it's looking to go. And I'll just trade it accordingly.
Michael:It just means that if the gap down is bad enough and I get stopped at a bunch of positions, how is that different, I guess, from a really bad losing day? Right? We're just from luck of the draw, all of your systems trigger out. Right? So it's one of those where, you know, me and Dave have been talking a lot more about me getting in and and doing more day trading.
Michael:It's because I'm sitting on a lot of cash right now. Because this down move in the market has flattened so many of my positions that I'm just kind of waiting for things to to occur. So, yeah, I'll push back a little bit there. I will say yes. You know, those overnight gaps are going to be because of the timing Yeah.
Michael:More interesting to me. But the the game plan doesn't change. Right? You buy a stock, you put a profit target, you put it at a stop loss and and you hope for you at the end of the day that it's up and for me at the end of the month that it's up. Right?
Dave:Yeah. So you might get a little less sleep than me on days like this. But so, yeah, point taken. The one thing that I was thinking about as you were talking, The assumption here, and I think a lot of people will assume this, is that, okay. There's one day that this happens.
Dave:There's, like, one big day, and then it's sort of back to normal. That's not the case at all. Right? There's There's periods like these days clump together and very often what you'll see is maybe your system doesn't work on the big day of the crash or whatever big market movement, But what typically happens is there's a lot is a lot of pent up energy, and the following day can have a dramatic effect on some of your systems. So that's the and subsequent days.
Dave:So Yep. You know, when I look at a lot of the models I run and what rules are applied, a lot of them come a lot of the rules come from the previous day's action. It's a it's a surprisingly important and predictive thing for a lot of systems is what happened the previous day. Where did it close in the previous day's range? What did yesterday's volume look like compared to normal?
Dave:And you know that that's because you know, because I know that that that has an effect on my systems, then you know on the big days, the day following, that it's gonna be you know, you should study that closely and see how that affects the following day. I mean, if it had I mean and really what we're talking about here is you can go back to the previous episode where we discussed, like, how to trade when the entire market's moving. Really, what you're after is what's unusual. And if the whole market's moving, you need to be able to find, like, the unusual stuff and your normal things that are, quote, unquote, unusual on a normal day are gonna be like noise on days like this.
Michael:Yeah. And it's funny because when you say that I think the same thing with my systems but just on a weekly basis, right? So, you know, we're recording this on a Friday and I'm really excited to run all my systems on the weekend because they will be it's the same thing. A lot of those systems are are queuing off of the prior week data. And most of the time, the prior week data is boring.
Michael:This week certainly won't be. So the symbols that get output from there, ideas that come up, I think are going to be way more interesting and potentially way more lucrative. So it ends up being an interesting time that yes, that's what I was kind of mentioning that if you take the day off of whatever event is, it doesn't mean that you're that you're done because I have often found the same thing of the next week, right? You you weather the the kind of the painful week anyway, and then the following weeks sometimes end up being the best times to potentially take trades. Because a lot of what we're doing in trading is we're trying to, you know, short things that are the strongest and buy the things that are the weakest.
Michael:And I think that becomes very or way easier to identify in periods of volatility, right? When the markets got a, a quarter percent daily range and maybe it's grinding up over and over again, it becomes a little bit harder to see, okay, these are the outliers when we are far from Warren Buffett here, but he's a good quote that he has you know, you don't know who's swimming naked until the tide goes out. And and in this kind of scenario, I find, especially for the swing trading, that makes a lot of sense. So when I run my system this weekend, there's gonna be a whole bunch of names that are are super interesting to me. And, you know, I think to bring it back to the mental side of things, could be another idea of why you take that day off, right?
Michael:The day off that's crazy. To kind of preserve that mental capital for those following days where you're, you know, everyone else is having a bad time and you're just working on systems and working on whatever. And then those following days, maybe you actually end up having a really good time because of that.
Dave:Yeah. So there's another wrinkle to this that I think is important. And, you know, we've talked up until now about, okay, turning things off completely, leaving things on completely. But there's a range of things you can do between that. You know, I've got, like, 25 systems now.
Dave:I know that there are some that are will be more sensitive to the overall market movement than others. So what I could do is like, and I and I have a good idea about which ones I would do this for, I could turn off specific ones that I know are gonna be affected. And I know that, you know, some of these movements just are not gonna be unusual on a day like today where normally they would be. So it turned those off knowing that they're gonna have an effect. I think that's a I think that takes, you know, having a lot of systems.
Dave:It also takes knowing them well enough to understand when they're gonna have when the overall market is gonna have a big effect or not have an effect on them, and that comes with experience. But it's another advantage to having multiple strategies.
Michael:Yes. Yeah, I am. And yeah, the the other thing, right, again, bringing it back to kind of the mental side of things, you're right, you don't need to shut everything off. But what if you reduce risk, right? Could be a way to stay engaged, a way to stay in the game to make sure that you're you're doing the right thing, right?
Michael:You're doing the thing that you know you should be doing, but you're kind of satisfying that that mental demon of, oh, you you know, I have to place I have to place trades or or I, you know, the other demon of I should completely walk away. I think that's a really good idea is you just take some time. You say, okay. I'm gonna continue to trade as normal today, but, you know, maybe I usually risk a hundred dollars a trade and I'm gonna risk 25 or something like that. Because I I think the benefit of that too is that you get to have a little bit of a feeling of what would have happened if you had stuck to your stuck to your guns and, you know, done what you should have done that day, which is probably in the long run, going in and running your systems as normal.
Michael:The yeah, I think there's a big advantage there just to say, okay, I have, I did the thing, just did smaller, so I didn't risk as much. And then if you look back, and it would have been a really good day, or it would have been a really bad day, you can kind of add that. And I also think on days like this, it's important to be able to go through and do that and say, am sticking to my guns or sticking to my triggers in kind of any way, right? And just I've done that. And I think that might help confidence of next time.
Michael:And you can also track fills, which I think is something important to talk about because on days like this that are incredibly crazy, I think the amount of fills that you're potentially going to have versus your system may differ a little bit more. Right? We talked about this tracking slippage on on what your signal prices are. Crazier the day, probably more of a chance that those things break in in some way. But if you're trading at all, it's it's a lot easier to track that.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. I'm reminded just as you were mentioning there about adjusting size, reminding of our discussion about take your best trades with bigger size. A great episode you should go back. I've gotten a lot of great feedback on it.
Dave:Some has been very negative. They're they're like some very good traders have responded to me and said, there's no possible way you can do this. Well, alright. That's probably some more discussion we can have about it. But you can take that concept and apply it to a day like this.
Dave:Maybe you only take your highest confidence trades on a big day. That's a great thing to do. The other thing it does is instead of, you know, going to the beach and flying in the sun on a day like today, you wanna really kind of absorb the day. You wanna watch the action. I mean, are unique and powerful events and Entertaining.
Dave:You don't wanna put your head in the sand, really. You wanna watch and and really experience what's going on because you'll learn you'll learn things by just being here and watching what's going on.
Michael:Yeah, I think and you know, if you love the market, these are certainly entertaining times, right? It's one of those it's it's there is no lack of interesting or exciting periods for that. Right? Well, there's no lack of of fun times to be had looking at the market. And, you know, it's one of those that you as a spectator, before you should.
Michael:Then also, you may start to because everything is happening so fast, you may notice something there as well where you're you're seeing something, I don't know, kind of at increased speeds, if that makes sense, as a way to to to really kinda get yourself interested, really get yourself involved on what's going on. But yeah, I'm super pro trading it, but just doing so smaller because you're kind of taking the gloves off. I guess just saying that one thing may be paper trading, but I I kinda like the some skin in the game, just a little bit less skin in the game. And then I think what it does is just from kind of a regret minimization framework is that if you come in and say you trade half size, and it turns out that whatever this massive gap down happened would have been an amazing day for your system. You're someone who, you're doing mean reversion to the long side, right?
Michael:On 4% down day, you're gonna get a lot of triggers. And it's either gonna be an amazing day where, you know, market rips all day because it's a buying opportunity or really, really bad. At least from that kind of lowering size, you're getting a little bit more comfortable seeing what's going on. You're getting a little bit more comfortable trading it. And the two scenarios, if the market rips, well, at least you're gonna be happy that you got some involvement, although it would be less money than you would have made if you had had gone fully.
Michael:And if it's that really bad day, then it's less involvement as well. So again, think it's the best middle ground that you can come up with is the difference between those two things.
Dave:Yeah. So here's the question. How much do you trade short?
Michael:From the swing trading side of things? None. I will trade long inverse ETFs. I've got one strategy. It's kind of like a hedge that will come on, but very rarely.
Michael:And it's not for any other reason other than I haven't discovered from a swing trading side of things, something that's good enough to the short side that it covers the risk of, right, your Yeah. If I'm overnight and I'm in 20 stocks and then the market's gonna gap down 5%, I'm hopefully going to lose a little bit less than 5% that day. And, you know, that's fine. It it hurts, but it's fine. If it's the other way and, right, the market is gapping up or a buyout or something like that, I just see that there's a lot more potential risks to swinging on the short side.
Michael:So I just need to find something that really kinda, you know, hits that on the head. Now for the day trading side of things, I think that's gonna be the majority of my focus.
Dave:Yeah. So the the traders that I work with, they trade the short side, not exclusively, but as they're day trading that they trade a lot of shorts. And I hear from them that they feel a little bit guilty sort of on days like today where everybody there's a lot of people that feeling pain, people that are not looking at their four zero one k. The market's going down. Bad for them.
Dave:And my guys are making money. So it puts you in sort of an awkward spot sometimes, and I've I've been there, I I can I can tell that, you know, some people I talk to are like, oh, okay? You're a you're an un American short trader. Right? How that's that's evil.
Michael:Yeah. We we know some people, but does it make me I was about to interject. Is am I a bad person?
Dave:Because I don't feel bad at all when I'm short and and doing okay. Yeah. It is it's a pretty awesome feeling just to know that you designed something that makes money when the market goes down. That's pretty freaking cool. Yeah.
Dave:There's a lot of there's a lot of pride in that, but you do you are you do get put in an awkward situation sometimes when, you know, everybody around you is feeling pain from their long term holdings dropping like a rock. Yeah.
Michael:And I I get it, but it's one of those I look at it more of the nature of the game is is one that we're all adults. Right? We've all come in and and played. And most people, right, I don't think are are that hard up, you know, or or that affected by it. If you're someone who's, you know, it's you're working and you've got a four zero one k somewhere and, you know, you get the monthly statement this month and I think the market's down, you know, and the queues are down 20 from highs.
Michael:Right? One fifth of your money's gone. Yeah. You're bummed. But even you know, we're not a long term investing show, but even if you're a long term investor, you should be loving it because you've got your whole life and career to continue to add money into into this thing that you believe is gonna appreciate over time.
Michael:So so have at it. But, yeah, it it is a it is an interesting situation. You know, I think it's one of those you just you don't brag about it. Right? If I'm I'm in a pub with my boys, I'm not gonna say, oh, it's, know, it's a good time.
Michael:I'm I'm I'm having a great time right now. But, I certainly don't feel bad because I look at it as, you know, everyone's an adult and we've all come in the same game at the same time and, you know, we figure out what's going to happen after that.
Dave:Yeah and I think, you know, I've spent a lot of time creating strategies so I don't have to worry about days like this and so that I will make money on days like this. So that didn't it's not luck. It's not a happy accident. That's because I've set out for years designing systems so that I am not stressed out on days like this and feel almost like it's just any other day.
Michael:Yeah. And but I I really think there is a something to be said about kind of the psychology behind it. And lot of one of the episodes we had about social media and everything. I I really do think that as someone who right. I who goes on CNBC and gets invited on, you know, podcasts and everything to talk about this stuff as a as a analyst as well as a trader, everyone is so much more worried than I think that they should be and and freaking out than they should be.
Michael:So I think a lot of this has to do with how worried you are, has a lot to do with your media diet, how how much of a deal most of these issues are. And we're not just talking about this particular one, but we're talking about all of them, right? When it comes again, again, carry on wine, COVID, great financial class, whatever it is. I think separating yourself from the media, social or traditional or otherwise is a great thing because it allows you to start asking questions about, okay, this is what's happening in the market. This is what my data says.
Michael:This is what I should do next. Where most other people, I think, are kinda caught up in kind of the more existential dread side of things. Right? And, you know, doing that, you know, raises your emotions. It gets you, you know, worked up and worried about some things.
Michael:And I just don't think that's the move. Right? I think it's one of those that you should be spending your days when the market's doing stuff like this, listening to podcasts like this and going through your data and and all of this because just because it's it's a bad time out there and everybody's all up in arms doesn't mean it has to be a bad time for you. Yeah.
Dave:I think it's great advice. We've talked about that a lot is don't follow the news. I don't follow the news. I don't you mentioned media diet. I'm like, what's that?
Dave:I don't even have a diet media diet at all. In fact and I kinda it's not it's not quite the same, but part of the spy, I put in that same category as news that I mostly avoid. My indicator for the overall market is, like, what normal people ask me about is, oh, have you seen what the market's doing? And then if enough people ask me that, I'll be like, oh, okay. Maybe this is my indicator to go look at what it's doing.
Michael:Well, that's something we should systematize. I I know a trader who all of his buy signals are the market in turmoil thing because he still watches CNBCs. Like, every time that pops up, he's like, dip my toe in the water a little bit. That'd be interesting to systematize. But, yeah, when when sentiment gets too bad in either direction, then again, it's probably time to to to look at another side or to potentially take another trade.
Michael:But this the idea is that I think, yeah, the more that you shut it out and you look at it as just just more data to add to your your test, your back test, your forward test, whatever it is. And if you're someone like me who's like, I'll tell you exactly what I'm doing as continuing to loyally follow my systems. And at the same time, I'm gonna start exploring swing trading and and things like that because those are are are something that I haven't or day trading. Sorry. Those are something I haven't been doing, but I'm looking at it now and saying, well, you know, there's situations like this that will come up again in which I have, you know, potentially capital that I could deploy to to something else.
Michael:So even if you're not trading, it doesn't mean that you're not working. It just means that it's it's time to do something else. Right? And that I think helps with the people who may be feeling anxiety or whatever on on crazy market moving days. It's okay.
Michael:Take that and allocate that somewhere else. Right? Maybe take that day off and then observe the day or trade it super, super small, but then take that excess capital, mental capital that you're saving, then you know, go do something else with it, go apply it somewhere else.
Dave:Yeah, the other thing you can do is, you know, really look at the day and then go back and look at your back test and see if you have enough of these instances in there. May one of your to dos after a day like today might be go gather more data so you can get a couple more of these instances in your history so you can get a sense of what's gonna happen. You have at least some days like that where you can look at. So Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:I think that's really valuable. It gives you something to look at, and you'll definitely learn something by doing that.
Michael:Yeah. And, again, it's it's always always just data. It's right. And it's one of those things that your your goal is not to, you know, make a killing or blow your account up in a single day. So make sure whatever you're doing is is gathering data for the next time because that's the kind of the way I look at it is that there will be other crashes.
Michael:They'll be caused by something that no one sees coming, and they'll go away by something that no one sees coming. The most important thing, like you mentioned, is that because they happen so infrequently, because they're rare events, they have to happen infrequently, it gets to be a very important data building moment because you're not you don't get to see them very often. So, yeah, do something to figure out how your systems would have performed if you take that time off. And if you don't take that time off, even if it ends up not working out well for you, you have that data. So now you know when the next time comes, potentially a little bit better idea what to do.
Dave:Yeah, think that's great advice.
Michael:Alright. So until the next time, I'm Michael Noss.
Dave:And I'm Dave Mabe. We hope you join us next week on Line Your Own Pockets.
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