Interview with Brett Steenbarger
Okay, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Line Your Own Pockets. We have a very special guest today, in which I'm gonna allow this person who I think is kinda larger than life in our industry. We me and Dave were comparing the books that we had beforehand. And and, you know, one of the first books that I ever bought and one of the blogs that when I was discretionary trading, I would read every single day.
Michael:And this is back 20 years ago that I I had this book and I've been reading these. So, you know, absolutely amazing and handling one of, I think, the most important topics of trading, and that's Brett Steenbarger. So for any listeners who haven't heard of you, first of all, shame on you. Right? This is something that you should have come across when you were learning how to trade.
Michael:Can you just you know, they're hearing your name for the first time. Just give them a little broad strokes of who you are and and what you do.
Brett:Great. Well, thank you so much to both of you. I appreciate the opportunity to speak together. So I'm a psychologist, a clinical psychologist. And for many years since 1985, but who's dating ourselves?
Brett:I've been on the faculty of a medical school department of psychiatry. It's in Syracuse. And so I've had a long career in the academic world and I've done research in psychology and I've run counseling programs as a psychologist But then around the year 2003, I made a transition, wrote my first book on the psychology of trading, and was invited to join a firm in Chicago to work with their traders. That seemed like a unique opportunity, and so I jumped in full time, went part time on the faculty, which I am currently, and began a career of working with traders using many of the same techniques as a psychologist that I had been using, in my previous life running counseling programs, for students and for the public. So, the idea here, and I think both of you will get this because you are systematic traders, which means that you are evidence based traders.
Michael:Mhmm.
Brett:The culture in medical school is that you help people based on the evidence of research. And so I use techniques that have been proven, that have been researched in the literature and apply those so that people eventually can learn to control themselves. But the idea is to be evidence based. It's not just giving my personal advice. It's using methods that have been shown to improve how we think, how we feel, and how we behave.
Dave:I love that, Brett. Yeah. Thanks for that background. So in preparing for this, talk, I looked back through some of your posts on your Trader Feet blog, which is just a great resource. You've so have written so prolifically over the years.
Dave:One of the posts there, you describe a drawdown that you had back in the early eighties, which was painful at the time and sort of caused you to change direction. As it's it's a really great post. We'll put that a link to it in the show notes. Yep. What struck me about it was you were trading then.
Dave:You that drawdown caused you to sort of change direction in your life in kind of a big way. And you go go into academia, the completely different field. You know, one of my daughters is in academia. I mean, it's hard to imagine a more different field than the trading world than as academia. So can you talk a little bit about that experience and how you came back into trading?
Dave:What did you learn from academia? Are there lessons you you you took away from that? Like, are there any parallels to trading at all that you, can look back on and, opine on?
Brett:Yeah. Those are great questions. Yeah. So there was a period of time, early in the eighties, when I decided I would try full time trading. And, I did well and I did well going into 1981, 1982.
Brett:And then if you remember your market history, but, of course, this is before you guys were born. If you remember your market history, the market bottomed out in 1982 and began quite an amazing rally. Yeah. Well, I missed that bottom. And that was the drawdown that you're referring to, Dave.
Brett:And that really caused me to reassess a number of things in my life, not just my trading. I knew I had to change my trading methods and learn from this drawdown, but I also had to reassess the role of trading in my life. And I came to the conclusion that the ups and downs of being a full time trader were just not for me. I didn't have that emotional makeup. I needed some base of security, underneath myself.
Brett:And so that's what led me to seek first some, opportunities in the psychological world working as a clinical psychologist. It was actually at a community mental health center and then eventually in in the academic world. The the common element here is what, traders sometimes call idea generation. I love research. I love discovery.
Brett:I have that intellectual curiosity. And so that's what fascinated me about trading, but that's also what has fascinated me in the academic world. So that was the linkage. The difference is in the academic world and in the applied world of psychology, I got a paycheck.
Michael:Yeah.
Brett:That's some security. I even got some benefits. Who knew? And especially if I was going to raise a family, and if I was going to have a degree of security myself, I really needed that. So trading had to fit into my life.
Brett:I couldn't make my life fit into markets.
Michael:I I think that's fantastic. And and is that something that you've noticed with a lot of people that you've talked to that went full time or are looking to go full time, that that it is a completely different stress level when you go from, you know, the I'm trading as a part time or extra income or or wealth creation or something to I I need to trade successfully in order to, you know, get send my kids to college or or pay the mortgage or something. That hurdle, is that something that you've noticed is just too big for a lot of people, or is it Absolutely.
Brett:Yeah. Absolutely. Depending on their bank accounts. Right? You know, if I'm trying if I'm a young person, I'm trying to learn how to trade and my total wealth in my bank account is a couple
Michael:$1,000. Well, you
Brett:know, I have no financial security whatsoever. What I tell people in the books I've written is you have to be able to survive your learning curve. And the learning curve in discretionary trading and systematic trading, you know, it's not a matter of weeks, it's not a matter of months in any performance field to really become an expert, to to be able to make a living from what you do often takes years of effort. And so you have to have enough financial security either from a spouse who has a regular income or from having savings of your own so that the pressures of P and L, the pressures of trading don't get added on to the financial pressures and become unsustainable.
Michael:Well, I I love that when you talked about that you were, that you have that intellectual curiosity that, and it's something that I've noticed as well where if you're looking at it as kind of a puzzle to be solved, a game to be won, you know, a a business to be built, then it puts your brain in a different mode, I think, than if you're someone who's, you know, I need to make x amount of dollars in order to, you know, make sure my kids get fed. The the amount of stress and the the places that your brain go is just 2 completely different stories when right? You know, one is, I I wanna figure this out. It's kinda fun. And then the other is, I need to make x amount of dollars or I lose my house.
Brett:Exactly. And if your interest is in discovery, that curiosity, then you're more likely to find unique sources of edge in financial markets that might be sustainable. If I'm too pressured to make money right away, I'm tempted to take shortcuts and copy other people, and I'm not sure that that's the long term sustainable path.
Dave:Yeah. I think a big part of what the difficulty of the long learning curve is, you know, you often hear, hey. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon. But it's even even harder than marathon.
Dave:Marathon has a finish line, where sometimes it's not really you're not really clear where your learning curve's gonna end. Maybe it never ends. So, that that makes it doubly difficult. So one one psychological question here that may seem kinda basic, but it's it's something that I run into very often. I know a lot of traders run into this is, you know, why is it that humans are so hardwired to do what's basically the least profitable thing or in a when they're in a trade if they don't have a plan.
Dave:I guess, you know, it it it's so common. It does seem like something about how humans are hardwired. You're just your natural instinct is to do the least profitable thing. Well, why is that?
Brett:Great question. I guess I have two answers to that. One is that I think part of the problem is that markets are hardwired to do the opposite. So back test in many markets, what are the returns like over the near term after a 5 day high versus a 5 day low? Well, 5 day high, it's going up.
Brett:We should keep going up. 5 day low, it's going down. It should keep going down. Well, run the back test, and it ain't necessarily so. So to some degree, markets are wired the other way.
Brett:That's part of the challenge. The other part of the challenge is that a lot of individuals get into markets because they wanna make money, and so they they try to trade right away. In other performance fields, there's a recognition that there's a lengthy training process. You know, think about performing artists. Think about athletes.
Brett:If you put an athlete into a game, into a crucial situation where they've only had a month of exposure to the sport, well, what are they gonna do? They're gonna be anxious, overwhelmed, and they're going to act on their anxiety. A lot of the psychological problems that newer traders face is because they have not gotten proper training, and so they become overwhelmed and they go untilled and so forth.
Dave:Mhmm.
Brett:But it's not because they're wired the wrong way. It's because they're trying to short circuit a process of expertise development.
Michael:The, you said something there that I know me and Dave both love, which was run the back test. Right? We're we're both, you know, really data driven and and and quandered. Now as someone who follows your work and and listen to a whole bunch of podcasts you've been on, you you kinda describe yourself as, I'd say, semi systematic, right, where you have, patterns that you look at and rules that you follow. And then when it comes time to execute, you're doing some amount of, looking at, you know, what's happening in real time, tape reading, that kind of thing.
Michael:How did you come across that, that area of it? Like, we we me and Dave always talked about that systematic trading is is on spectrum, and I would argue that every successful trader is, in some respect, systematic. Right? There no one who's been around and in the game for a long time just sits down and throws darts at a board and and looks at a chart and says, oh, I think this is going up and buys it. Everyone has some sort of a process, and everyone seems to eventually fall on that curve of systematic discretion and where that kind of picks up.
Michael:How long did it take you to find that happy medium? And is there any tips you have to anyone who's working on that and on how robotic they should be versus how, discretionary they should be and and where they should fall on that curve?
Brett:Yeah. It's really such an interesting area because even discretionary traders, the ones I work with at hedge funds who are quite, quite, quite successful, to some degree, they are, quote, unquote, robotic. Mhmm. They have a, quote, unquote, process that they follow to generate ideas, to translate ideas into trades, to allocate risk to those trades, to manage those that risk. So they have rules that they follow and quote unquote best practices.
Brett:Yep. And so to that degree, they are a bit robotic. They're rule governed. Now the rules aren't laid out explicitly quantitatively, but there is a systematic element to what they do and how they do it. In my own case, I've always had a liking, for mathematics, and that curiosity led me to want to test various ideas and led me to do my own research, create my own databases, which I maintain to this day.
Brett:And many times from my trading, the research, if I see a distinct edge to the trade in terms of market history, then that becomes what I call the idea. So it's a rising market and we make an x day low. Let's look at all the times in market history where we've had a similar rising market and made the next day low and what has happened over the next period of time. So I'll do those kind of historical queries. And if I see there's a real skew to the forward results, that becomes the idea that I trade.
Brett:But it's not that I just go ahead and put on the position. I now want good risk reward in the implementation of that trade. So I'm very interested in execution. Because if I can get a good risk reward entry point, then I can size up that position and have modest downside. Mhmm.
Brett:So I treat the idea as a discretionary trade. So let's say we make a x day low, in a rising market, and we seem to be bottoming, and we go into a range where we're bottoming and we break out of that range to the upside. I want to get long and I want to get large on that breakout. If we go back down to where the recent lows were, I'm out. That's my risk and I size it so that I can tolerate that level of risk.
Brett:But the idea is if historically we've gone back up to the previous highs, then that's a good risk reward trade. So, I'm using discretionary trading to get the good risk reward to get to find a good trade, but the quantitative work helps me find a good idea. And in the hedge fund world, that's known as hybrid trading because you're partly quantitative, partly systematic. There are other ways of integrating quant and discretionary as well. But many people I work with are not all one or all the other.
Michael:Well and that's I think that's common in most things in life. Right? The the extremes on both sides for a lot of things are are generally problematic. Right? Some sort of a skew, you know, think of, like, mixed martial arts or or whatever.
Michael:Building in different, modalities or different, ways of thinking is is certainly very interesting, and I love that. I love hearing that because that's more or less the way that I I'm doing things as well. But, yeah, I just wanted to I think that answer was great. Thank you.
Brett:But there are people at the extremes who are very, very successful. Yep. So, you know, read the book on machine learning by Marcos Lopez Obrado. Not much discretionary in that book. So he's truly systematic and is quite accomplished at that.
Brett:On the other hand, there are purely discretionary traders that, especially that are short term, in the prop trading world, and they are trading off patterns of price and volume and so forth. And some of them are quite talented at that. So there are the extremes. But for me, what makes sense is an idea that's been tested and then a rigorous way of implementing that idea.
Dave:So, Brett, so what do you think are the differences in the skill sets required to be somebody on the far edges of that continuum we're talking about? So, you know, what would it take to be a really good discretionary trader as opposed to a fully automated trader? What what are the skill set differences do you think?
Brett:Yeah. For the, quant trader, the trader who's totally systematic, There really has to be an ability to analyze collect data, from a database and analyze, data in some sophisticated ways. You have to love the math. You have to love the quantitative aspect of it. So it's partly the skill, but it's partly the talent, the interest that a person has.
Brett:That certainly is necessary. I have worked in the past with people who are medical researchers, and they have lots of curiosity about diseases and treatments, and they're fascinated by looking at different possibilities and, going down different rabbit holes. They they have that curiosity. They love to discover. And I think a good quant traders like that or a good quant team is like that.
Brett:In the discretionary world, a lot of the information processing is qualitative rather than quantitative and is based on pattern recognition. And so it's a different kind of intelligence. I can notice patterns very quickly and respond quickly to those patterns. That doesn't mean that I have a great analytical skill from a quantitative perspective. To some degree, it's like the Daniel Kahneman distinction between fast thinking and slower, deeper thinking.
Brett:The real short term discretionary traders are fast thinkers. They're pattern recognizers. And really good quant traders are researchers and slower, deeper thinkers.
Dave:Yeah. I like that. So I think let's go back to the psychology of trading and some of the differences between discretionary and systematic traders. I think a lot of systematic traders go down that route almost to avoid some of the psychological issues. Right?
Dave:They systematize a lot of what they do. There's this notion that, okay. Well, I can just not fool with any of the trading psychology. Everything's gonna be automated. You know, why would I need to worry about that?
Dave:When in reality, you you sort of shift those psychological issues to a different part of trading. Can you talk a little bit about the psychology of trading from a quantitative perspective and how those differ than a discretionary trader?
Brett:Yeah. So there are two aspects to that. 1 is with the teams that I've worked with, and usually it is teams that are doing the quant work. A lot of the psychological aspects deal with how well they are working together as a team, how well they are utilizing their creativity and asking better questions than others, how well they are responding to the ups and downs of their development process and the trading of their models. So that's more of what I end up talking with them about.
Brett:In in the discretionary teams, it it would be wonderful if you do could develop a model and it would work for all time in all markets. Yeah. It doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't.
Brett:And so what happens is that every model, every system that's developed has a certain shelf life or it has a certain set of market conditions in which it's profitable, but then in other conditions, it may not be. You know, something that's very profitable in a low VIX market, a relatively low volatility market, which is usually a bull market, may do terribly in a high VIX market when we're having a sell off and correlations are going to 1. So the uncertainties of regime change, when do you turn systems on and when do you turn them off? There is some judgment involved in those decisions that has psychological impact. So those are things that I've discussed with the quants.
Michael:Yeah. And and, you know, this brings me to a question I had where you talk all the time about being mentally adaptable is is very important. You know, being able to, I listened to one quote that I thought was amazing where you said, if you're just extremely disciplined and not adaptable, you'll just lose money in a disciplined way, right, where, you know, you'll just Right. You'll just continue to do the thing that's not working for a long period of time. And then we kinda contrast that with systematic trading in which a lot of people think of Systematic Trading as I am gonna build this model and I'm going to trust the data and the backtest and and continue to trade this model, what are some some things that you could kinda help systematic traders out with squaring of you know, you have to be adaptable.
Michael:Like you mentioned, you have to create new models. You have to turn models on and off, but then not also not doing it too quickly. And this is something that I'm sure that you've seen a lot where people will trade a system or a model, and then all of a sudden for maybe even just a couple days or a couple weeks, they don't make money. And then they're all of a sudden on to the the complete other next thing. Right?
Michael:They're a future trader, and they're like, you know what? I've had a bad week. I'm gonna trade options or forex or something now. Walking that line to me is something that I always have problems with and I think is would be very common for our listeners is, you know, one one of my favorite sayings is, don't be so open minded that your brain falls out. The the idea is, like, how how do you balance that of I need to be, in some respects, dogmatic about what I've what I've tested, and and that makes sense, but not too much so in in which, like I mentioned, you're just being very disciplined on on your way to, you know, blowing up your account.
Brett:Yeah. Great questions. So, you know, you're trading your systems and you're losing money. The question becomes, is the way you're losing money and the amount of money you're losing historically expectable? You know, is the current performance in sample, so to speak?
Brett:Or is something very different going on that has not shown up in market history, at least in the backtest that you've done? And obviously, if this is normal and expectable, the, the, the challenge for dealing with that is to allocate money judiciously to that system versus other systems. If it's out of sample, then that takes a deeper dive. What's different now than before and how might that affect, your training going forward, your trading of other systems, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So using draw downs as potential information is something that we see with discretionary traders, but also with systematic traders.
Brett:Again, remember, I work primarily at hedge funds. And in hedge funds, you don't have a portfolio manager who trades the system. Mhmm. The quant managers trade many they develop and trade many different systems that are relatively uncorrelated. Maybe they're on different time frames, different asset classes, they're trading different patterns, and that's called diversification.
Brett:So there's the total spectrum of their systems creates a portfolio. And when one system is drawing down, others could be making money, and that creates a smoother equity curve, a higher sharp ratio, like it does in the discretionary world. So they balance the various systems so that if one system no longer is valid, it won't completely destroy performance. That all being said, many systematic teams have systems for trading systems. In other words, they have systematized when in history has it made the most sense to trade systems a, b, and d, when has it made sense historically to trade systems a, c, and e, and they create rules.
Brett:They create a system for allocating capital to different systems based on current market conditions. So they have a systematic way of adapting to market conditions. Most individual systematic traders, I don't think have reached that level of sophistication.
Dave:Yeah. I think, one thing I like to say is, the only thing harder than creating your first system is creating your second one. Mhmm. It's partly because, you know, certainly for retail traders, once you sort of figure something out, your identity becomes wrapped up in that strategy, that system. So it's kinda hard to get out of that and think about something different than that.
Dave:Do you have any thoughts about, processes, steps to put in place for yourself to not become calcified in the way you think and to have a more open mind to see more things that might be flowing through the market every day right in front of your eyes, but you're not noticing them. Do you have any suggestions about that?
Brett:Yeah. I like your use of the word calcified because that's, that's the death sentence, for any trader, right, to not be adaptable. 2 things. Look at different asset classes and look at different time frames. So I've developed a day trading system that works really well.
Brett:Great. But rather than now try to create a competing day trading system, how about if we create something with the same asset class on a swing time frame, a larger time frame? Or I have a day trading system that's working for individual equities. Let's see if we can apply it successfully to trade, oh, crypto assets. So, you're diversifying by by playing a different game.
Brett:Mhmm. And that way, the one game doesn't clash in your head with the other one that you've been working on.
Michael:See, I I love that because I've been trying to get Dave away from just being a degenerate day trader now for the whole time we've been doing this podcast. He's dogmatic about that. So we could almost say calcified in in that. So now I've got more ammo to have them start exploring, exploring different time frames. And you're right also
Brett:Or or or, you know, if you were running a hedge fund team and you have Dave, who is a systematic day trader and is just passionate about that and he's talented and he's successful, then you would hire another member to your team who would have similar passion, similar talent on other time frames to other asset classes.
Michael:This is, something I hadn't had planned, but you mentioned team a lot. Have you noticed a lot of benefits to team environments when it comes to trading as opposed to individual? Because we always think of trading as as a very kinda individual and and in a way lonely type of endeavor where you're spending a lot of time, you know, thinking, you're spending a lot of time to yourself. But you had mentioned a team environment so much. Have you noticed kind of a a tangible benefit for people who kinda collaborate when it comes to sharing ideas?
Michael:I my worry was always if, you know, if I have 10 of my friends and we're all doing the same thing, then we'll all, you know, succeed or or fail together. Have you noticed, something different from that?
Brett:Absolutely. And that's why teams are the norm, not the exception in the hedge fund world. And even in the prop trading world, increasingly, we've seen the development of teams. But it's not people who just duplicate each other. It it's teams where people have complementary interests and talents.
Brett:And so the idea is that each person can make the other ones better. And so if I have real talents in trading individual equities and you have talents in trading crude oil futures, maybe we can put those together and maybe there would be a synergy for trading the energy sector in the equity market. That'd be interesting. So now all of a sudden, 1 plus 1 can become 3. And that's what you see in good teams.
Brett:It is lonely to work individually, but it's also intellectually limiting. If you look at the medical world, for instance, at medical schools, people work as teams. You have a heart specialist, and you have an anesthesia specialist, and you have a psychiatry specialist, and they all work as teams on the complex cases. Everyone's informing everyone else, and that can create a very positive psychology.
Michael:I I love that because I I, to be honest, didn't really think of that too much. But, when you're mentioning teens, you're thinking more of in that academic way where it's not so much, complimentary, but almost challenging in a way, right, where I can present an idea and someone else can, you know, try to debunk or or test that idea, and and you can go back and forth. So you're kind of, the same way as someone publishes a paper and then you have a whole bunch of people read and and try to, poke holes in that paper.
Brett:Absolutely. Absolutely. Now there is a different model for teamwork, and that is where each member of the team has a different role and specializes in that different role. So you may have teams where some people, all they do is, collect and clean data. You know, they are data specialists.
Brett:And you have other members of the team who are statisticians. Quants in that respect. You have other members of the team that are programmers, developers. And there is a process that puts their unique areas together and creates, what, Marcos Lopez de Prado in his book calls a factory. So the factory model is you have a team, but everyone has their unique roles and you're creating outputs based on everyone's specialization.
Brett:That's a different context of team and some of the larger funds and money management organizations build teams in that way.
Dave:So, Brett, do you you've talked a lot about the hedge fund space that you work in, that you consult in, the prop trading space. If there are retail traders out there that are, like Michael said, lonely, they're they're working in a silo, maybe they realize that they could benefit from working with other retail traders, but they're not gonna they're not gonna be in the hedge fund space. They're not gonna be in the prop trading space. Do you have suggestions for a trader like that for creating a team themselves, creating some collaboration among other like minded or maybe not quite like minded people to have that 1 plus one equals 3 effect that you described.
Brett:Yeah. And and that's why I think it's been encouraging that we've seen the development of many trading communities, and it gives people an opportunity to meet each other virtually and be exposed to different ideas. And I've seen that work quite well. I do some work with the people who do training at the prop firm SMB Capital. You might be familiar with them.
Brett:Mhmm. And it's clear that both virtually and together, they are sharing ideas. They're supporting each other personally, emotionally, and helping each other's performance. And I think that's a very positive dynamic. But, obviously, you have to reach out and find the communities that speak to you, to achieve that kind of teamwork.
Dave:So in preparing for this interview, Brett, I look back over your greater feed blog that I mentioned earlier. It seemed like a common theme in your writing and from your, from your early career where you talked about that big loss. Writing is such an important role over your entire career. You talk about the papers you wrote as an academic in the early nineties. You've had such a prolific and totally consistent habit of writing for many, many, I mean, decades now.
Dave:Can you talk a little bit about how writing has helped your career, helped your trading, helped your life in general, and what sort of benefits it has? And tell me a little bit more about the consistency that you're able to muster to do that.
Brett:Yeah. There's a systematic aspect of writing as well, and you have to outline what you wanna say and then work on each section. I've written 4 trading books, so far, and a 5th one is on the way. Awesome. Thank you for giving me that opportunity to pitch.
Brett:But this book, a tentative title is positive Trading Psychology, and it's an integration of positive psychology, the psychology of our strengths and talents with trading and the development of our work as traders. And what writing does is give me a way of thinking aloud and crystallizing ideas and methods. It also puts me in touch with people who love ideas, who have that intellectual curiosity. So it's been a central part of my work. I don't work with the trading public.
Brett:I don't work with individual traders. And so I'm not writing books to, like, build my practice. Fortunately, I've never had to do that. But it's a way of speaking to people who who might resonate with the ideas, and they will reach out to you and you'll create a network. And I find that really fulfilling, at a professional level and a personal level.
Michael:Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. The I find, putting content out there just into the ether, right, especially when you're getting started, you're just shooting ideas out there. Eventually, and it happened with me anyways, you end up just people who are like minded kind of find each other and and chat about whatever. So it's just a great way to start building that community.
Michael:So that's if if you're not writing and and putting it out there, I would highly suggest doing that or myself with videos or any sort of creative. I I'm just gonna talk to my camera and and hit upload to YouTube and and kinda see what happens for that. But, Brett, this was just absolutely amazing. This this was awesome. You know, I I I've got your signed book right here.
Michael:I know David Mhmm. Dave's got a lot of them as well. This was this was amazing, and I think a lot of help to a lot of our listeners as well. So in case anyone wants I know you you mentioned you're not, building a private practice, but if anyone wants to get in touch with you at all or or follow any of your work or make sure they're alerted when this new book, launches. What would be the best way to to to get in touch with that?
Michael:What would be the best way to make sure that they're they're alerted when this comes out? Because I'm I'm asking for myself as well.
Brett:Yeah. So I'm active on Twitter or x, and, the, it's at sign Steenbab, s t e e n b a b, at Steenbab. That's a great way to follow me and to, direct message me. Be in touch. The trader feed blog, is something that I contribute every week.
Brett:There's new content there. It's been going on since early 2000. And a great strategy, if you're interested in anything I've written about different ideas, is simply to Google trader feed and then whatever your topic is. So you could Google trader feed discipline and all the posts will come up that talk about trader discipline. So that's a a great way to get, content, and it's free.
Michael:No. I I I love that. And, again, if people if anyone's watching this, and I'm sure Dave agrees wholeheartedly, and you haven't read the blog or read the books or or whatever, you're doing yourself a massive disservice because, like we talked about in this podcast, if you're a discretionary trader, a systematic trader, whatever it is you're doing, psychology is gonna play a massive, massive role in in what you're doing. So learning about that aspect of trading, even if you're, you know, quant nerd like us that spends a lot of time in the numbers, you know, it it makes perfect sense to, to take some time to explore that, to make sure that you have some ideas of what's going on mentally when you're when you're doing these things.
Brett:That's great. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for having me, as part of your broadcast. And I want to wish everyone good luck in their systematic development.
Dave:Thanks very much, Brett. Thanks for being on.
Michael:Thank you.
Brett:Bye bye. Bye bye.
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