Getting Started with Amibroker
Okay, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Line Your Own Pockets. In this episode, we're actually gonna talk about my experience with Amnibroker. So I've been using RealTest for ages. It's what I do kind of exclusively for all of my swing trading and even currently everything I've been doing for about the last year and the day trading side of things.
Michael:But it felt like, especially for the day trading side, I was kinda starting to pop up against a wall in which if you haven't seen this already, make sure you go back. We did a whole kind of comparison with different back testers and then what we look for in back testers and all that. And the main kind of glaring problem with real tests is the lack of intraday data. So to get into that and to maybe do some more short term strategies, I decided to go over with Dave's suggestion of Amity Broker. So we're gonna talk a little bit about my experience so far and the struggles that I've had and and maybe some ways to help you guys get started if if you're gonna be interested in in either making the transition or or the leap into Ambibroker for the first time.
Dave:Yeah. So it's a bit interesting and it's been really interesting slacking back and forth with you as you've gone through this because I went through this in like 2008. So it's been a long time since I learned Ambit Broker. So it's really good
Michael:to
Dave:see somebody who's looking at it for the first time and the problems they're going through. Boxes that I checked in the program like literally a decade ago that I haven't thought about since then. But, oh, yeah. You gotta check that thing. So it this has been interesting.
Dave:So this will be good to talk through.
Michael:Well, and also, I think the our backgrounds are obviously different. Right? I'm not a tech savvy person, right? I've used a Mac for ages just because it's simpler than a PC, right? I've been a console gamer instead of a PC, right?
Michael:I've always just known enough about technology to kind of get by, right? And learned that kind of thing. So I haven't been as deep in it with you. But I think that's a good place to start actually. You mentioned all of these boxes and settings, and that got me to kind of my first realization about Amnibroker is that it is not as much of a, I'd say, a pure backtester as RealTest is, where you can see there's a lot of other things you could do with Ambien Broker besides backtesting.
Michael:Whereas RealTest, it's got like one singular focus. So when it came to setting up things, I didn't have to look at charting and all of this because one benefit or drawback, depending on how you look at it, is just lack of customization in real tests. A lot of that has been kind of stripped out, it says, so everything that you do in real tests is just done with the scripting language. Like the whole process, there's no like, I have to go and change any sort of settings. So that was the first realization, the first bit of advice, is that you could write all this code for your backtest, but then there's this whole other world of, like, report settings and everything that you have to deal with that is something you have to think about.
Michael:And that that to me, that that took, like, two days to to figure out what some of that stuff was.
Dave:Yeah. Some of that stuff's hiding. You can write code to customize those settings, but it's not really clear and and obvious how to do that. You got to go look it up and understand that part. So yeah, there is a bit of a learning curve.
Dave:It's not for everybody.
Michael:But
Dave:like we say a lot, really good looking equity curves turn people who didn't think they were programmers into doing what it takes to get by. Like you, you're not a developer, but you're a systematic trader. That's what you do. So, you're kind of proof that that's certainly possible and with enough motivation. And certainly these days with LMs as good as they are and getting better, there's never been an easier time to start systematic trading.
Michael:Yeah. And that's that, I guess, leads me to the kind of my next point is that when I originally or a long time ago started to go down this road, I tried Amity Broker before even though I was still a RealTest user, and LM seemed useless in helping me. Anything to do with it, just could not understand. I kept defaulting to Python and writing everything in Python. I'd say no, and I would even upload the the guides and everything, and I'd upload a sample script.
Michael:And I said, no, this is what I'm trying to do, you know, make this work, and just completely useless across the board. I think it's been about a year since I tried last time and infinitely better. I've actually been using the new Gemini three model, and it seems to fully grasp the concept. I don't know if it's Google's ability to read forms or dive into something or whatever. It has been to the point where I'm getting it to write full scripts and bug testing and everything, and that's been awesome.
Michael:But, you know, this is where I kind of wanted to ask you because I know I saw some emails that you were writing about this. Do you have any specific kind of advice for that the the LLM work with inside Amity?
Dave:Yeah. So Amibroker is the LMs are still still have a long way to go to get good at Amibroker. The traders that I work with to use it are They're better off using a starting point. And the big thing that the LMs don't know how to do, which is also what most traders don't know how to do for back testing is adding the custom columns. That's the key piece to actually getting a strategy that's profitable.
Dave:If you're not able to do that, you're just guessing and checking like we like to say. So I do sell this template that is the perfect starting point for any Ambit Broker strategy. And if you upload that to the LLMs, that gives you a great starting point because adds the custom columns exactly like you're supposed to and in the most efficient way. And it allows you to use that as a starting point for every strategy from now on. And that way you can automatically include your column library with it.
Dave:So your column library is growing independently of the backtest you're running. So it's just cycle of improvement that you create for yourself with it.
Michael:Well, and that's another thing that I'll say about that I found about Amnibroker is that because it's way more commonly used, it's just way more, you know, out there, it's been out there for longer, you developed angry little communities, but there are little communities that that exist out there in which there's more, like, aftermarket parks. It's like if you're driving a Benz, it's really hard to find that perfect app. But if you're driving a Honda Civic, then you're gonna be able to find and that's more of my experience with amber brokers because it's it's been out there forever, there's tons of people that use it, you can go and find people who have built little scripts or add ons or little additions to it all out there on the web. And this is not just in kind of the Amity Broker forum and community, but, you know, around it and outside of it, there's different people like yourself that sell, you know, like different add ons or provide different add ons. I found a couple blogs that actually have been going through their process of building with Amity Broker, and they're including like sample scripts and things like that.
Michael:Because the basic strategy I wanna start with is gonna be like, again, an incredibly basic thing just to kind of prove that I can work my way around it. And then very quickly, I found that someone else had been doing roughly the same thing. So I was able to kind of compare and contrast between what he did and kind of what I'm looking to do.
Dave:Yeah. So let's back up a bit. So if you're coming from another back tester, like specifically like trade ideas. So maybe you're using trade ideas. The big thing with trade ideas is all the data is right there.
Dave:Don't have to import any data. It's all server side. So it's a completely different experience. Now, the problem with trade ideas is you only have three months of back testing. So a lot of people go from trade ideas to Amibroker to be able to back test a longer period.
Dave:But as soon as they start using Amibroker like you did, you're gonna bring up the program and there's gonna be no data in it. You're like, okay, well, what's this useful for? So the first thing you have to do is not only import data, but import your symbol list. So that's the first part you have to do is actually get the symbols in there that you want to populate data for, then populate the data however much you want to do. So why don't you talk through what you did there and and our back and forth about that?
Michael:Well, and this was one thing that I will and would have done completely different. So I went with, to begin with, Polygon. They're changing their name to massive, I think, which is Yeah. Ridiculous.
Dave:I refuse to use the word massive. I'm I'm gonna continue to use Polygon until
Michael:Well, somebody still Facebook. I'm not talking about I'm not I'm not I'm not ever bringing up that stock and talking about Meta. It's Facebook. It's not Alphabet. It's Google.
Michael:So I'm with you. I'm not you guys can change your name if you want, but it's old to me. But anyway, and thankfully for Dave, he had this whole process with Python and all of this kind of stuff. And the reason it was a mistake is because I was trying to cheap out, you know, is it like trying to, like, it's $20 or something for a month. It's very, very limited, but the benefit or the drawback of them is because it's cheaper, it's basically just here's your data, have fun.
Michael:Right? There's no importing tool. There's no way to go in and have it automatically sync. There's no option for really live data until you're in the higher tiers. So that was a nightmare.
Michael:That took weeks of kind of go through it. And I was memeing a bit with Dave because at the end of this, you have to build the database. So I've taken, you know, again, with Dave's Python scripts, I was able to take all the data and kinda clean it up and get it looking like Amnibroker one, and then you had to hit import. So I highlighted all the files, which was like five years of data, and I hit import. And I my my idea was I knew it was gonna take a while.
Michael:I'm like, I'll go to sleep, and then I'll you know, if my computer doesn't crash, it'll be done when I get up. It took four days and I think fifteen hours straight. This thing just said nonstop. And I don't have the most powerful PC in the world. I do most things on my Mac, and then I've got like, a server room with a PC in it.
Michael:I like that it's, like, hardwired and all that kind of stuff, so it's always running. But, yeah, four days nonstop of uploading this data to finally get everything done. And, yeah, it was just crazy because, again, for contrast on real tests, I use Norgate. And every kind of fifteen minutes in the background, it pulls in the data, and it it automatically kinda shoots it into to real tests. And when I run a test, it loads up all that data quickly into RAM.
Michael:And then from there, I can just test very quickly as much as I want. So just a completely different experience. Now talking with you, and I just get you to confirm, if I go with, what was it, IQ Feed that you have, it works somewhat similar. There's a plugin. It's all kind of taken care of off.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you could take what's somewhat of a manual approach with Polygon. And some developer types or really tech type people are gravitated to that approach.
Dave:They like that approach because you have real control over every little thing. Could make changes, you could do whatever you could. And all the steps you just described, can automate. And I've got traders that they will they have scripts that run that will do exactly those steps each night. So they're not importing five months of data every night, but they're importing one night, one day of data.
Dave:Yeah. So so, yeah, all that's possible with Polygon, but with IQ Feed, it is a lot easier. There's a plugin for Amibroker, you create a database quickly, you can do a backfill. Backfill, basically, I could do like ten years of one minute bars across the entire US market in like an hour and a half it'll take to import that. So yeah, it's a different experience.
Dave:So important the difference between Polygon and IQ Feed, Polygon is really only for importing data in a back testing mode. As soon as you go to real time trading with Ambit Broker, you're gonna need IQ Feed or something similar to to load your data in real time. So with IQ Feed, you get to do basically both of those functions. So if you know you're going to real time eventually, then you may as well go with IQ Feed.
Michael:The and the difference isn't that much, in my opinion, to make it worth the time. Right? So I kind of I had a little bit of a sunk cost fallacy where I'm like, okay. I've already bought a month, and I have all this data. Let me just throw it in there and then use that.
Michael:But very, very quickly, from this point, I'm going to be switching that back over to IQ Feed. And I would recommend everyone do the same is, you know, don't cheap out on the data. And you're talking the difference like a $100 a month, right? So it shouldn't be If that's going to make or break your trading, then I just don't You're just not funded enough to kind of make it worth your while, I think. But that was one of those, oh, I'm gonna save a few nickels, and then looking back and saying, I should have just spent a $100, which is like a trip to Starbucks with my family at this point.
Michael:So the yeah, definitely, like, that's your first tip is find something that does a little bit of a plug in because for me, I was you get that excitement of, okay, I'm gonna get in here. I'm gonna start testing some things. It'll be super cool. And then you hit the first brick wall of now you gotta wait weeks to get any sort of data that you can start you can start playing with. Whereas if you had just went and bought the original thing, then that would have shortened the time dramatically, and you could have spent more time doing.
Michael:So it kind of felt like a little bit of of a loss of momentum. Right? And then of course, just how life works as a dad, kids are getting sick all over the place and then different things are pulling me out, but I had this like one period of time to really sink in. So make sure you're spending for something. Not necessarily IQ Feed because not sponsored, but something that is there's a module that that will plug right in and just save yourself the headache, I think, personally.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably the right move. But yeah, so as you the other thing is if you're doing that import, it's taking forever. I have had some traders that try that assume it's going to work, and then they get to the end and there's some formatting wrong that they did.
Dave:They got this database that's basically wrong. They have to start over. So now they're way back at square one. They're waiting that whole period. So another important thing is try something that's a really bite sized chunk that's not gonna take very long, go verify.
Dave:And then when you're sure it's gonna work, then you can actually go and do the big upload that you know is gonna take a while, but only do that once you make sure that your data is gonna look exactly like you need it to look.
Michael:Yeah. And it's yeah. Just get get the plug in and save yourself the the time and the energy because the other thing that I I wanted to hit on there is that, say I don't buy the live data right away. Well, that shouldn't matter, the jump from backtest to live, because all I would then have to do with that same data feed is just go pay them more money to to get the live data going. Whereas now my game plan is when I'm just gonna switch to IQ feed, it's gonna be a whole little bit of a learning process and and moving everything over.
Michael:Where if you pick your even if you're getting the historical data, make sure you're getting that historical data from a place that eventually can give you the live data so it's not just a completely separate process. And like you mentioned, God forbid, there's a formatting difference between the two of them or the way they do different symbols like warrants or something like that. And you're, yeah, you end up doing a whole nother process again to reconcile the old data feed to the new data feed, and get something that you can kind of just flick a switch by paying them more or something, and then that new data just keeps coming in in real time. So you're not, again, you're not you're not worried about it. But, you know, for Polygon's kind of defense there, I paid them once.
Michael:I paid them like $20. I downloaded five years of historical intraday one minute candle data, and then I canceled my subs. I don't need them anymore. Right? They're gone.
Michael:So it means that, yes, I'm not getting things updated every day, but if you're just in this kind of pure exploratory backtest mode, you don't need the newest data, right? You just need a chunk of data. So my data will end in December 2025. And unless it takes me six months to, you know, start backtesting and launch a strategy, I have that five year backtest window that I can run things on. So if you are in a very cost saving mode, it is an option, but I just don't think it's it's worth it personally.
Dave:Yeah. To to Polygon's defense here, their APIs are quite nice. The way they make the files available, they're called the minute aggregate files. So they make them available over a very nice programmatic interface that you can connect to. So it's pretty Like if you're a developer type, you could pretty quickly set up some automation around this.
Dave:And our back and forth, you going through this really helped me to update the documentation for Makekit where I have some tools that make this really easy. So yeah, your feedback here was great for those scripts and you can easily download them if you're a MapeKit customer.
Michael:Glad I was a good guinea pig for you there,
Dave:Let's if nothing talk about the databases themselves. The other big difference between Trade Ideas and other platforms and Ambroker is the backtests are running locally. So there's a trade off there. You have to use your own computing resources to make the backtest work. Now, I like that because everything's running locally.
Dave:There's no server side or other people that are looking at what I'm running. There's an advantage there. So it is a little harder to set up. It's a little bit harder to manage, but it's totally doable. With practice, it becomes second nature.
Dave:And I like that it's hard to set up because a lot of people aren't going to be as persistent as you were and they're going to give up. Essentially, trader competition for this is is less because it's it's harder to do.
Michael:Well, and I will say just one difference too from RealTest is with RealTest, you import the data directly into the script itself. Whereas with this one, you go through and you import the data first, and then you you do the script. So again, just little differences that you'll find kinda all along the way. So for example, like, RealTest is built out into sections. You got your import section, and then parameters, and then data, and then the strategies from there.
Michael:And in the import section, you just say, you know, take it from Norgate and all of that, and this is all in there as well. So one thing I had to get used to, and it took me a couple times, I would load up Amity Broker and I'd hit a button to test and everything would kind of fail, you have to go, okay, you have to first outside of the script test, point it at the database, and then it up, you know, starts to draw from then after. So yeah, if you are coming from a real test or again, with the trade ID is a little bit different, but just know there are these different everything's just located differently. It again, it feels as someone who uses a Mac for most things will then use a PC for this, it feels kind of the same way where all the buttons are there. They're just, you know, in different kind of locations, and you have to give yourself kind of that time and permission to go, okay.
Michael:Right? They're they're these are located differently. I just need to to be okay that it might take me a little bit to find, right, this particular button.
Dave:Yeah. So let let's talk about the databases themselves. So, you know, that's the first thing that people that take a little little bit getting used to. You you create a database, you import your data into it. You can create multiple databases and just switch between them.
Dave:You might And have in fact, I encourage people to have one back testing database that has a bunch of data in it. And then when you go to real time, you should be creating a new database that's smaller. And you should have for the number of bars, that's how you control how big the database is and how much data gets imported into it. You control the number of bars that is in for each symbol. So with a backtesting database, you can have a large number, millions of bars.
Dave:But for real time, you wanna have it lean, you wanna have the smallest number of bars possible to compute the indicators that you've decided are important for your strategy. So because you want the explorations, the real time trading to happen as fast as possible so you get that signal in time to actually make a trade without it being too because if not, it's too delayed and you're gonna miss the opportunity. So that's an important distinction to make between the two databases. And you know, with one, you know, efficient efficiency doesn't really matter that much, but with real time, it's it's extremely important.
Michael:Well and, like, a lot of this, I think, hits the the massive if you just wanna do a difference, what is the difference between RealTest and AvoidBroker, right? And we just talked about RealTest doesn't have intraday data, but all of this is just, in my opinion, just highlights that difference is that, you know, you talked about a lot of granular customization of your particular database. If that kind of stuff is really important to you, it's going to be easier or even more possible or possible at all in an Amity broker and not so much in a real test and vice versa, right, where if you if you are are someone who's more interested in using a Mac, the real test is more of that kind of experience where you get what most people are interested in, what most people need, but without a lot of the the the kind of customization and the ability to really get in there. Whereas if you're someone who uses like Linux, then you're probably gonna have a better idea with Amdibroker where you can get in and you can customize everything. And, you know, there's whether or not that's important to you, I think, is is a very personal question.
Michael:But, like, I saw someone who had a really cool equity curve where as opposed to a full equity curve from start to finish, he was able to pro program Amity Broker where it would start each year. So you'd have a graph of the year return and then another box of graph of year. So you like, the ability to go in and just super, super hyper customize everything seems only possible in the Amnibroker side, but it's the question of whether or not that's important to you. So what I the path that I took, I think, is is one that actually makes a lot of sense for a lot of people where I go, I went, I started in something that was simpler. Like, way back in the day, started in trade ideas, right, where, again, there's no programming or any it's all GUI interface and away you go.
Michael:And then from there, I went over real tests, which is a little bit more complicated, but still doable. And now I'm taking the leap. So it feels like I'm kind of wading into the ocean just a little deeper and deeper each time. Yeah. And depending on, again, your experience and skill set and things like that might be good, or you might just be someone that, yeah, you're using Arch Linux anyway, and in which case, just dive right in.
Michael:Like, just go nuts. Yeah.
Dave:Yeah. So you're right. Amber Broker is completely customizable. Customizable. The charting I really like the charting platform.
Dave:It doesn't have as many capabilities as TradingView, but there's probably too many capabilities there. Ambroker Ambroker is completely customized. We can draw all sorts of stuff on the chart if you want to. You put buttons on the chart. You could literally draw buttons on the chart and have those buttons perform actions.
Dave:Like literally whatever code you want to run, you can have it run. So there's a lot of power there and it's very extensible. But you're right, like I said, it's not for everybody, but it's been around forever. It's been around, I think, for thirty years now, he said. So that's a long time for the software to be around.
Michael:So yeah, that actually lead to a question that I wanted to ask about this. And this is just from, say, working at companies that sometimes the software is so old that as things update over time, that initial software can kinda get dated, I guess, and and start to to pull that forward. I don't know if this is just me getting old, but I'm starting to think about so what happens in like, is it is is Ambroker owned by one guy? And is it to the point where if that guy leaves or changes or freight and again hit by a bus or something like that, like how much does that affect how this thing works? And part of it is just like the the deeper my income kind of gets ingrained in a software, I start to think about all the things around it.
Michael:Like, you know, am I jumping into something? Which is another thought that I had in my head about a lot of people who just use, like, Python. And, you know, with the ability to have AIs really, really good at programming Python, I know that Python isn't centralized, I guess, is that's the word I'm looking for in the way that something like this would be. So do you ever have any fears of, like, it going away or getting shut down or anything like that?
Dave:I don't because the I've I've watched this development cycle that he has evolve over time. And the old versions work just as well as the newer versions. So it's really I have such a deep respect for him as a former CTO myself, just to watch how he resisted the urge to add too many features to the software, added the features that he did add and he added for very specific reasons and that were very logical. Know that when features are added, there's a really good reason he's adding them. And it's specifically so it makes traders lives easier.
Dave:So it's that is not something I worry about.
Michael:I I never thought about that. And that actually that was the one thing that kinda quelled my because unlike something that is server run, if Amnibroker shuts us down, I still have the version that's downloaded on my computer, and it will still work the way it always has. And if I'm bringing my own data, so everything I'm doing from outside of it, it just might mean that it doesn't get updated. But at the very least, that doesn't create a panic situation of you wake up one day and you hit a button to generate all your orders and it goes Yeah.
Dave:True.
Michael:To hell. Yeah. Right? You can you you you would have months period to to figure out another solution and and to kinda move on from that. So that makes Yeah.
Michael:Yeah. That makes me feel better about it.
Dave:So as you were talking about RealTest there, like you said, the big difference is daily data versus intraday. And I know Marcin has had many, many requests for intraday data.
Michael:I'm on the phone And to see
Dave:you might think, Oh, just add entry day data. What's the big deal? Well, the big deal is it's an immense amount of data compared to daily data. That's why it's so hard. That's why it's not in real test now, just because the fundamental operation of real test wouldn't work with intraday data because there's just too much of it to be able to load into RAM and run efficiently.
Dave:So it would be literally a completely different experience using the software. I'm sure that's why the He appears to be dragging his feet, but really it's a huge technical problem to solve.
Michael:Yeah. So that's when and when people come to me and ask which one to start in, I think that's you know, if you're making a decision tree, that's the the top of the trees. Do you need intraday data? Because yes, well, then you only have one option. Go over there and Yeah.
Michael:And and have fun swimming in the deep, infect shark infected waters.
Dave:But but it's even it's even different than that. Like, it's not only do you need are are you using intraday data now, but will you ever need intraday data in the future? Then that's so it's a little bit different than, okay. Do I need it right now?
Michael:Well, I would say, yeah. And and plans plans change too. Right? So I would Mhmm. And then it get it's it's like anything.
Michael:It's a very personal thing. If someone came to me and said, oh, you know, I could see in, like, two years needing intraday data. But and they're a dev like you, I would say, well, just go right to Ambient Broker now. But if they were someone like me, I'd say, you know what? Maybe get started in real test.
Michael:Because on top of the, you know, easy use stuff, at the same time, you're also getting a lot of things when it comes to you're able to very quickly get into the back testing side of things, and the data analytics side of things, and you know, being able to run that, and being able to start trading, and be able to do that right off the like way faster than if you went the Amity broker way, if you were someone inexperienced. So I'd almost push them in that direction just to say, just do this. Understand it's you're probably gonna have to jump ship at some point, or like I'm planning on doing. I'm not leaving real tests. The plan is to do, right, intraday data over here and and whatever.
Michael:But like just if it's gonna take you a long time, which I very much fear Amity Broker is for me, then maybe just start with RealTest, get in there, start trading, start doing this, and then because I have been successful with these day trading systems using real tests and using daily data. It's just eventually, you just know that there's a wall that you're gonna get into at some point plan for that that that kind of thing accordingly.
Dave:Yeah. So okay. So you got your data imported into Amibroker. Have you have you gotten you used the the column library that comes with the cruncher, I think. Right?
Dave:Did you get that included into a backtest yet? Not yet.
Michael:Not yet. But I did give, and I told Dave this. I did give Dave his his 50 shiny American dollars, so and I told him to go frame it because he should pride that more than the the $50 he gets from somewhere else. But, no, that is on the next week's agenda when I can get time away from family and things like that. But what I I'll tell you what I did to get started was very quickly I said, I'm gonna go to ChatGPT and get a script.
Michael:But I was able to, instead of that, find these forms that I was talking about. Because my basic idea to get started with is let's take a trade as old as time that I think could work, will probably work forever in some degree, and it's a simple opening range breakout on something that's highly volatile or, you know, high relative volume or something like that. A very simple strategy, and I was able to just to go and grab the code and copy and paste it and just get started. Now, the strategy's awful, but it's more about just validating, okay, Cause unlike real tests, like we were talking about, I'm still learning where all the buttons are. So to be able just to get a stock piece of code and just throw it in there and have that work, well, now I can start to play with, right, where the buttons go and what the reports look like and and things like this.
Michael:And then I went and I got your course, and then I'm gonna go through that next week and then import the data from the cruncher after that.
Dave:Yeah. So that'll be that'll be so so the opening range breakout is actually the demo strategy that comes with the course. So you're gonna have that, but also you're gonna have the columns you can add to it. So Yeah. It's not a bad strategy.
Dave:In fact, one of the guys on coaching is is trading it live with a version of of literally the the demo strategy as a starting point. So, yeah, it's there there's definitely edge there.
Michael:One and it's funny, and this is a little off topic, but there are those strategies that I think in some degree might not be the best strategy in the world, but will always exist forever. And that's why I chose that to test because a, it's simple. Yeah. Right? It's you're not using a bunch of crazy indicators.
Michael:It's this is the range. And then also, I think the first strategy you should look fat should have a couple different parts of it. So for me, one of them was how do I define a gap? Right? So that's how do I reference yesterday's data and today's data?
Michael:And then it was also how do I define the time of day? Right? How do I, you know, stop loss profit target? So whatever you're starting with, make sure it has enough different components that the rest of the stuff is almost easier, like adding indicators. Indicators, generally speaking, are fairly easy to to calculate once and very easy to use.
Michael:That's I think why they're so popular to as a proxy for price, because the mathematics behind them are really, really simple. So that's why I picked that particular strategy, because I figure there's a base that makes perfect sense that people use all the time, and we know has worked for ages and in some degree will probably work forever. And then that framework gets me comfortable enough that I kind of understand some of the coding and the scripting involved, and then we start to dive in with indicators and different things after that. But like anything, and it's the same I always think of, I've never written a book, but I'd imagine would be the hardest part. It's like when the the word processor is empty, and you're sitting in front of it, right?
Michael:Just getting anything on there, even if it's shit, then okay, know, that So that was what I was looking for, and that's why I picked that. It's just get me something over the hump that I know is not a waste of time. Like, I'm not going to pick like a moving average crossover or something that I just don't think would ever work, but just something very simple. And then from there I can start to add, you know, relative volume and gaps and all that kind of stuff on on top of Yeah.
Dave:Love that. I like that approach. Alright. Well, I think we've probably I think that's probably a good place to stop with this episode. I think
Michael:the feel like I haven't even looked at the how long we've we've been recording for. Jeez. Wow. We're forty minutes in. But yeah.
Michael:So we we might want to attack this a little more because it is very interesting to me. And I think we and we talked about this in the in the last episode, I think, about automating parts of your trading business that are not the trading part of it. And you know, I think either me or you said something well, hopefully you're not automating the fun stuff, right? And for me, this is as much as I'm frustrated as hell with this, this is the fun stuff because I feel like I'm exploring something new. It's like when you pick up a new video game and you're starting to learn the mechanics of how everything works and Yeah.
Michael:And all of that. I feel like this is is super interesting to me right now. A lot of because I suck at it. Right? And that's what you know, if you're sitting there and you're still someone who's listening to this and you're wondering if you want to be a systematic trader, I think that's a a pretty good litmus test.
Michael:Right? Are you are you interested in kind of diving into the unknown and getting a little bit lost? And for me, the big thing that really kind of pushed me into this world was LLMs and NAIs. The fact that I don't need to find somebody that I can bug 10 times a day every time I get stuck. I can just ask this machine and get frustrated at it, and I've cursed to chat GBT, I think, very much.
Michael:But, you know, I can just say what's wrong, what's going on here, give me some ideas. And so don't be afraid if you are interested and you're like, hey, I really want to dive into this, but I just don't think I have the technical wherewithal. I don't think you need it as much anymore. I think it's more important to have the passion to try to figure it out and just realize that we have these little virtual assistants now that can help try to push you in the right direction. And just an example I'll give quickly is my dryer broke.
Michael:Like, it's it's turning, but there's no heat coming out. And I literally just walked down with the phone, I took a picture of the dryer, I said, what dryer is this? And it knew it. And I just said, I said, it's spinning around, but it's not heat coming out, and just gave me a list of I don't know how to fix a dryer, but it gave me like five things to do to try, and I'm gonna go after this podcast and then try to do it. And I'm approaching this the same way where I don't know what I don't know yet, but I know that if I hit a brick wall, I'll first try LMs.
Michael:I also have Dave on Slack, which I think is a big advantage, but I don't need to bug you don't need that anymore because with these things, you can kind of just get get pushed around, I think, enough to if you have the passion, I think you can make it through it.
Dave:Yeah, and your passion is obviously because you see some potential. You see a lot of potential for Edge. So that's really That's the driving force. And what's fun about this is you see that there's this whole greenfield that you've never been in.
Michael:And
Dave:if you could figure that out, there's potentially a lot more edge that you could create for yourself. Yeah.
Michael:That's Well, and some encouragement for those people in case there are people like me who are exclusively, you know, swing traders and I do it. Well, I have my day trading systems now, but I want to get further into it, is just the the fact that I I don't feel good about having access to a bunch of margin that I'm not currently using or prop firms or, you know, different ways to to access buying power. So if you are there and you've got maybe you're in real test right now and you've got some trend following systems and they're doing well for you and you're and you're making money, congratulations. But I would just take a look at it and say, well, during the trading day, how much money is your broker giving you that you're not doing anything with? So I think there's too much, and this is where I'll pick on Dave a bit.
Michael:I think there's too much of a one or the other. Right? And I think people should start looking at a little bit of the whole why not both? Why not, right, have holdings that exist overnight and and benefit of the upward trend of the market and all that? And then dip in the margin, the extra buying power your broker gives you and and kind of day trade.
Michael:So again, if there's somebody who has been held back the way I think I was, I'll probably regret being held back by it for too long and just say, it. Let's just dive into it and see what happens.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. I I love that approach because, yeah, I mean, unused buying power is capacity that you have that you're not using.
Michael:So Yeah.
Dave:It's just logical to optimize the way you're the way you're using that. And, yeah, I like the approach you're taking.
Michael:Awesome. Well, again, this one was a bit of a rant, I I think, because we were just kinda going through personal experience. But, again, if you like it, if you want us to dive a little deeper into this, I still have more stuff that I could certainly talk about. So just let us know in the comments. We like to always look at them and read them.
Michael:And as always, I'm Michael Noss.
Dave:And I'm Dave May. Talk to you next week on Line Your Own Pockets.
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