Deep vs. Wide: Two Paths to Trading Profits
All right, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Line Your Own Pockets and part of this kind of mini series on back testing and trading we're doing. This is an interesting one, one that I think we'll agree more on. Again, if you didn't tune in to the last episode, that was probably one of my favorites where, me and Dave went to blows. Not really, but
Dave:Pretty much.
Michael:We had some we had some healthy disagreements, and and I like that. So this one, think we'll agree a little bit more on, but it's a very interesting topic. So we're gonna talk about essentially when you're building a strategy, is it better to go deep, or is it better to go wide? And I'm gonna let Dave get into the nitty gritty here because this was another conversation with a client, which I always find they have the best questions so we can give them good answers. Yeah.
Dave:So I was talking to a guy that I'm starting to work with. He's a professional trader, been trading a long time, very good trader, trades big size. He's using the Strategy Cruncher. So I was showing him the Strategy Cruncher, showing him how it works. And he's like, Oh my gosh, I've done this all with Excel.
Dave:This is going to make my life so much easier. So we got to talking about his strategies and I was saying, Okay, here's the kind of things that you're going to get the most benefit out of using the Cruncher, a strategy like this. We're kind of talking through which one you should try first. In part of that conversation, he said, Yeah, the strategies I trade, I will only consider them if the profit factor is above three.
Michael:Which, first of all, just for I know a lot of the audience will know, but those who don't, that's pretty wild, right? Like, that's a huge profit factor. That essentially just means that for every dollar you're losing in your incorrect trades, you're making $3 total across the whole the whole thing. So if you sum up all of your loser trades and you lost a $100, then you sum up all your winning trades, you made $300. And that's that's pretty exceptional.
Michael:If you're getting a a three profit factor, that's a great trade. But I think the downside is what what Dave will talk about if you have something that exceptional.
Dave:Well, I'm I'm not sure there's a lot of downside. I just think there's two different camps of traders. And it's so interesting to me because I come across traders who They've got a strategy that's working. And depending on that strategy, they get kind of calcified in, Okay, is the kind of trading that works, the ones that look like this strategy, the one I've been trading, the one that's making me money, the one that I'm getting rich on, frankly. And when you have that, it's really hard to think about another approach.
Dave:So what I'm encouraging, and I don't think what he's doing is wrong by any means, but it's very different from a completely different type of strategy, which is one that I call casting a wide net or scaling wide. And like I said, neither of them are wrong, but they're very different mindsets and different approaches. Basically, probably in one of these camps and don't even realize it. And it's really good to think about what a strategy would look like that's in the other camp. So yeah, you're exactly right about a profit factor of three.
Dave:This is not like, Hey, I'm risking one to try to make three.
Michael:No.
Dave:It's a completely different thing. This is a very good strategy. Yes. And a lot of professional traders that I work with will trade strategies like this. This is what they trade.
Dave:And it's just a completely different strategy than one that, like I said, casts a wide net where you're trying to find a whole bunch of trades that has a smaller profit factor but has potentially as much or more total profit. It's hard for me to underestimate or say just how different the mindset is for these types of traders?
Michael:Well, like, one of them is I'm trying to think of analogies, and and, you know, I thought of one of maybe of a a boxer. Right? And you got two kind of boxers. And one, he takes every opening he can regardless how small. And his goal is to try to chip away at you over time.
Michael:He's just gonna keep hitting you, and they're not gonna be clean hits or the other. The other one stands back and doesn't swing at all until he sees a real big opening and gives it everything he's got and will either knock you clean out or, you know, maybe put himself on his back foot. So this this lower turnover but higher profit factor, what it's going to do, the equity curve is going to be a great equity curve. If you got a three profit factor set setup, you just you trade that setup. But he's going to be lacking some smoothness of equity curve because to get those kind of, you know, take a big swing at a big trade when it comes, it means that when you're wrong, it's gonna be a a fairly large loss as well.
Michael:Over the long run, again, you'll end up doing fantastically. But the other camp that you're describing is going to be more of a smoother equity curve where each individual win or loss doesn't matter nearly as much. So if you're just visualizing the equity curve in your head, it's just gonna be more of a smooth lineup as opposed to, right, I I hit a really great trade. I'm making a whole bunch of money. You know, may I made $20 a day, and then for the next five days, maybe I lose a thousand each day.
Michael:You're you're still making a ton of money. It's just not that consistent as whereas the other guy may come in in three out of five days or four out of five days. He's making a consistent amount of money. I think, and this is probably where we're gonna land at, but we'll we'll get there. But not to bury the lead is it's probably a combination of the two is probably gonna be your best bet.
Michael:Because I would never tell someone who has a wicked strategy like that to not trade it. I think the devil's gonna be in the details of how much you allocate to your big your big strategy versus your small strategy, And what you do with cash is just kind of lying around in the meantime.
Dave:Yeah. So now remember, this is not just a single strategy this guy has. Like this is his general rule for when he's coming up with strategies. Needs to be at least the three profit factors. So I can tell just by him telling me that, I know that he's walling himself off from the other camp of strategies, the other types of strategies to trade.
Dave:And that's fine, I always encourage basically, I work with a lot of traders like this and I help them see the range of strategies that are possible and get them unstuck from a rut they're in, which is basically, I'm trading this strategy, it's worked for me. This is the kind of strategy that works and I can't really see anything else. I get a lot of traders that come to me in that exact situation. And I can help them because I've been in that exact situation, Michael. Probably ten years ago, a little more, I was trading a strategy that casted a wide net, taking lots of trades, and I was in a drawdown.
Dave:So I was basically, I had all my eggs in basically this one strategy. I'd sort of converted it to two or four, but it was basically the same idea. So I knew at that point I needed to get out of that rut I was in. So I worked really hard to create a process for myself to come up with strategies way more quickly and just to be able to see the entire scope of possible strategies to trade the entire range. And it's a hard thing to do because when I was in that drawdown, your whole world feels like it's collapsing.
Dave:I traded these strategies for several years. I'd done really well. This is what I did is trade. This is the kind of trader I was trading these strategies. So it was really like kind of a come to Jesus moment about, okay, what do I do now?
Dave:Couldn't even I almost quit trading. That would have sucked because I just didn't want to feel that anymore. Being in a drawdown like that, where you're out of ideas, that sucks. And that's why I created a new process for myself where I would never find myself in a dead end like that. And it took a while, but I developed that and just figured out how to come up with strategies way more quickly.
Dave:And that eventually just creates more ideas for yourself in a way that you can just The strategies you create, create more ideas for different strategies. It sort of self perpetuates.
Michael:Well, yeah. And you know, the the main point of that, and it's what we always we always talk about is that that should be always your focus is always new strategies, understanding that right when things are going fantastic, that at some point they went poorly. And I think it's a good thing to talk to that person about and just say, hey, you know, what if there is an environment in the future where big swings like that just stop happening, like really high strategies that that are having that? And and what if, you know, you spend even something small like a month, and those strategies that are these really high win rate strategies that and you've completely walled yourself off from littler strategies that would still make you money. What if those are doing great?
Michael:And you've just said, I'm gonna say no to a 1.5 profit factor strategy because it's it's not a three. So I think that's a really good idea to approach. One of the things that I would talk to them about too is the start to feel uncomfortable when you have unused buying power. That's something I've been training myself a lot to do recently. Because of the bear market that just happened, I was sitting on a whole lot of buying power for a long period of time.
Michael:And although my drawdown was way less in the market, and then when the market rebounded, I'm having just a fantastic year, I still kind of remind myself of that and said, you could have done so much better with this the big lump of cash that was just not doing anything for you. So that's kind of what I always look at is that I want to have every day or every week or whatever your time frame is warnings from my broker. Right? You you know, that big box that pops up with Interactive Brokers saying, we're not gonna liquidate yet, but you're running out of buying power. I kind of started to train myself as seeing that thing is a good thing, and I wanna see that as often as possible.
Michael:And that might be a way to do it as well and say, listen. If you have enough three profit factor strategies that is constantly tying up all of your buying power and you're fully invested the whole time into different trades, you're probably doing okay. Maybe continue to build new strategies and shelve them for for later if those you know, so you have them in your back pocket if you need them later. But if there's ever a moment throughout the day or or even for my time frame throughout the week that you don't have buying power tied up, even if it's a very slight edge, it just makes sense to to use the capital you have, which is your weapon to try to try to exploit that.
Dave:Yeah. I think that's a good approach, and I'm sure we'll do. We keep talking about this buying power episode that we're going to do and we keep warning that it's upcoming. Seems like we should just get that one out of the way because I know it's going be going. But yeah, you're right.
Dave:I think that's a great way to look at it. So I do have kind of a systematic way I coach these guys when they're in this situation. I don't ever, if somebody's got something working, I don't ever suggest that they change it right away. That's never the right approach. Want them to keep that going because they're so familiar with it and you have such experience with the strategy if you've been trading it for a while.
Dave:That's really valuable and it's going to be hard to go to something completely new.
Michael:Well, the worst thing that you could do is shift them quickly over to something new and just through random luck, that new way of doing things enters a drawdown. And then they would look back at the way they're doing before and say, well, you know, I lost $10 this month. And if I was trading that way, I would have made $20. And then they're shut off from the new way forever. Right?
Michael:You can't look back at that point.
Dave:Yeah. The bigger thing that it helps them do is if you've still got the original one going and you start trading a new way, you can compare. It's easy to compare day by day. Whereas if you shut the first one off and then you try to compare, you're like, okay, well, what would it have done today? You don't really know.
Dave:So it's much harder to compare. So that's one approach to take. And what I usually tell people to do is come up with a variation of the strategy that you're trading that has way more trades. That's exactly the approach I took for my very first strategy. I went from trading probably four or five times a day, and I looked at the numbers, did a back test, I thought, okay, I could actually make a lot more money if I automate this and make like 10 times the number of trades I'm making with, even if the profit factor was lower.
Dave:Like if you just do the math, like there's just no way you're not going to make a lot more money if you automate this. In fact, with the process I created, I found ways to not have to, like the average trade wouldn't go down that much and I could have a whole bunch more trades.
Michael:Well, so it seems like there's and I'm sure and people visualize it if you're listening to the audio version, but there's that chart of like the efficient frontier of trading strategies and you're trying to land on that curve. And that seems like that's exactly what you're doing there. You're saying, Okay, how can I balance? You have you have two scales. One is how, you know, effective and accurate is the trading strategy versus how much it trades.
Michael:And, yeah, you're just bringing down the, okay, I can have a trade a lot more, but maybe it's only a little bit more, you know, a little bit less effective. So net net, it ends up being a way better thing. And that's that's an interesting we talk about all the time about, you know, building and refining strategies. But even that one tweak of how many trades do I let in versus how accurate is is the system, that's just a a really interesting dial to play with, and that's one of the beauties of back testing is you can you can play with that and find some sort of happy medium. Is it you know, it's probably not trading a thousand trades a day for a point one or 1.1 profit factor, and it's probably not one trade a day for a two profit factor.
Michael:It's there's some middle ground that ends up being the most optimal there.
Dave:Yeah. So Another thing that I will have people do is trade a variation of the strategy, a pretty close variation of their strategy, and have it trade side by side, maybe in a different account. Some traders have multiple accounts trading small variations of their original strategy, and then they go back and compare. That's really a good way to do it. A lot of traders will do that to compare fills.
Dave:Maybe they'll have a different entry order mechanism and maybe one's a little bit more aggressive than the other and they're trying to compare missed trades with these two variations, having two going at the same time and comparing, that's the way the pros do it. That's the only real way to compare these small variations in strategies and, you know, effectively evaluate them.
Michael:So when you say having multiple strategies run, right, is it different accounts? Is it different? Is it a paper on one and a live on the other? Or are you just at the end of the day, when you're tagging the trades, you're tagging this is from strategy A, which is what I normally trade versus the loosened strategy? What's what's the best way you think it is that they can kind of see and feel what those trades are?
Dave:Yeah. The ideal way is to have different accounts. That's not always feasible and possible, but some brokers will work with you and allow you to set up multiple accounts like this. A lot of prop traders, it's very easy to set up accounts. That's what they do.
Dave:And they make that very easy. But you can do this all in one with If you're coding an application to make the trades, you have a little more flexibility. Any of those approaches you just suggested will work.
Michael:Because I I would personally I love the two accounts. Even if they're paper accounts, doesn't really matter. But I just love to see, you know, you have at the end of the day, you have your two p and l windows up with all the trades they've taken, and it just it's more, like, visceral to say, yes. This is the this account, even if it's only a paper, this account made a grand. This account made $3.
Michael:And then you do that for a period of time. And then if you're always seeing the one account is destroying the other one, I just think seeing that dollar amount in in some way is going to make way more of an impact than going back and looking at the backtest or looking at the trades because you you're seeing it in real time. Especially so if maybe your old way you're trading live and maybe the new way you're trading in paper, and you see that that paper account is destroying it, it just triggers that thing in your head to saying, made x and I could have made y. Well, why wouldn't I just go over Yeah. And do that?
Michael:Or, again, we always gotta remember we can't just absolutely do binaries or some variation of the two. Right? You know, maybe you're trading, you know, strategy. Maybe your first strategy, you're still trading with 75 or 80% of your capital, but you're trading it the new way with a little bit in order to to kind of help smooth out those returns a little bit.
Dave:Yeah. So so the traders that, start with this approach where they've scaled up, smaller number of trades, high profit factor above three, path for them, Tim, for me and you, it's kind of obvious because I think we both tend to trade this way where we're casting a wide net. So for somebody that's coming from that to casting a wide net, it's sort of difficult to wrap their head around. So I think you start with a back test and just look at the total amount, the total profit that you can make from that and make it similar to the strategy that you're using. What if you relax the rules for your profit factor of three strategy to where it was down to 1.5, like you said, how many trades can you get in there?
Dave:What would the total profit look like? Just imagine that world. So I think that's a good approach because it's similar to something they're already familiar with, but it's like a completely different take on what they've been doing.
Michael:Well, I also think, and one thing that I've done periodically is you can do very simple exercises in Excel. Right? If you take a a have a column and have a random number generator that's roughly considering your strategy that takes a thousand trades and then add other columns that's using random number generators that are, you know, maybe less accurate, but you're just adding the columns and then just plot out the equity curve. And I think that's kind of like the first and most simple way to get people in the door is you start to see very quickly that more trades, even more suboptimal trades, are generally better than fewer larger trades. So, you know, if you're completely, utterly unconvinced and you don't wanna go through all the effort that we were talking about before, that seems like a really good way to get started is just to run some basic simulations in Excel and just say, well, yeah, what if, you know, you know, I take my original strategy trades, but what if they're half as good and I trade them three times as much?
Michael:What happens? And that'll give you a very good understanding of what the basic numbers look like and probably convince yourself to then go and do kind of the rest of the work that we're we're talking about there.
Dave:Yeah. So let's talk about going the other direction, which is you're trading a strategy that casts a wide net and you're trying to get a strategy in this other camp that has high profit factor, typically lower drawdowns. And it's hard to make that leap. So what do you do? Well, the first thing I suggest here is taking the strategy that you're trading and figuring out what portion of those trades are the most profitable and seeing if you could create a role to take those with bigger size.
Dave:So instead of using your constant position size across every signal that comes through, figure out if you can determine which maybe 10%, 20% of the trades have a higher edge than the other and take those with just a little bit bigger size. That's the very first step. Figure out what 10 or 20% that is. And by the process of doing that, you're gonna already put yourself in a mindset of, okay, how can I take the most profitable ones with bigger size? That's like the mindset to be in.
Dave:And it's something that if you're casting a wide net, it's probably not what you're thinking about. And I encourage a lot of traders to do that because it is a mindset that can be It's an advanced thing, but it's a very profitable thing if you do it right.
Michael:Yeah. And I love that just because I think the initial thought of maybe a lot of listeners would be, Oh, man, I'd love a three profit factor strategy. Where do I go get one? How do I build one? And and what you're saying is just kind of do a little bit of mining of of what it is that you currently have.
Michael:Right? You know, you somewhere, if you have a strategy that's got, you know, a 1.5 or even a 1.25 profit factor strategy, which is a good one anyway. Somewhere in there, there is, you know, trades that you could take out that are a three profit factor. Now it may make it so it's not if you just took those trades, the the strategy is less profitable overall. But if you can grab those, and like you mentioned, size them up a bit, I I think that makes a lot of sense.
Michael:And you're right. Puts you in the right frame of mind, because I don't think there's anybody listening to this that if they were through their normal strategy generation, idea generation, testing, they saw a three r trade or a three profit factor trade strategy, they would just say no. Like, we would all love it if the question is where. So it's to get yourself in the in the frame of, you know, here's the trades that here's the strategy that I'm gonna make a lot of trades in. Here's one that I'm gonna make less trades in, but they're more profitable and take them bigger.
Michael:And then we combine them because at the end of the day, like we always talk about, that's the ticket, right, is to have as many kind of uncorrelated strategies, different timeframes, different, you know, long short, different size that you can. Now for that, how would you, you know, the nitty gritty of it? How would you technically go through and make sure that you're doing, you know, one like, how how big would you make the other trades? You know what I mean? So is it enough that your higher win rate or your higher profitable strategy, is it are you trading it two times bigger than the other one, three times bigger, five times, 10 times?
Michael:And how do you come up with that number in order to kind of balance the I don't want one trade that I'm taking bigger to wipe out, you know, 10 trades that I'm taking a little bit smaller?
Dave:Yeah. So I'm not going to give you an exact number, but I think as long as you get in the mindset, okay, some of these trades I'm going to take with bigger size. And people that trade these sort of wide net strategies, it's going to be hard for you to think about it because it's not going to come natural to you. But on the other side, people that are coming from the other end, this is all they do. They wait for the right signal that they are very confident in and they put a lot of money in.
Dave:So I'm not saying you can take the strategy that you're trading now and find another strategy that is just automatically in this other camp, but there's some variation of it that can put you in that direction. Once you do that, it should start to open your mind to what's possible. You can use what you learn to come up with a strategy that is designed for this other camp. Like I said, I don't think one is any better than the other. They're both great when done well.
Dave:And it's really good to be thinking about both ends of the spectrum because if you are only on one end, I'm telling you on the other end of it, there's a lot of money to be made that you're not thinking about. And that goes both ways, like a 100%. And I've got some strategies that are specifically designed for both ends of this and they're both good. But they're very different mindsets to be in. I think it's really valuable to think about the other end of the spectrum for wherever you are.
Michael:Just to harp on too that, I don't think of it as necessarily a binary, right? That I'm the guy who trades this or I'm the guy who trades this. Ideally, you're probably the guy who trades both. But yeah, it is two like polar opposite mindsets that you have to kind of get your brain around. So that kind of leads to the question of what if somebody just comes back to you and they just say, listen, I'm just not mentally capable of taking that many trades with low probability.
Michael:I just can't stand either being wrong that often or because I'm taking so many trades, I have to take them so small that they're not really as impactful each individual trade.
Dave:Yeah.
Michael:You know, efficiency argument or something like that. What if they're just kinda really opposed to doing that and they've heard everything you've said already? What's kind of the game plan there?
Dave:Yeah, so in that situation, I would have them trade it with such small size that it doesn't matter and just put it into their process. A lot of these traders are already automatically trading, so it's not a huge deal to have another strategy running and they just, it's in their process. And then just let it run for some period of time. It's not interfering with what they're doing. It's not big enough that it requires their attention during the day.
Dave:So then just let some of those trades pile up, make sure they're matching the backtest and then see and compare. Then, like we've said before, once you see an equity curve over time, that starts to get motivating, right? Yeah. And then you can figure out, okay, this seems to be working. The equity curve sure looks pretty smooth.
Dave:Why wouldn't I add more to this? How can I modify it so that it is more natural for me to add, to apply more capital to it?
Michael:Yeah, and that's where I was trying to push you anyway, because a lot of people will look at more trading strategies as more work, and really it should only be more work if you're doing the trading manually. So, you know, that would be the argument. If say, for example, somebody was taking these more rare, but more profitable trades, and they were doing it manually, my kind of initial push to them would say, okay, well, the ones that are taking more frequently, just make them small and fully automate those, right? If for whatever reason, you're not feeling comfortable automating the big swings, we'll just automate all the little little base hits and and do it small enough that it's out of the way. And then hopefully that does one of two or does both things where it drags them into, well, maybe I should be automating the big swings too.
Michael:We have a whole podcast about that just pushing them in that direction. But it will also, I think help is you just described it like that as saying, listen, just make it so small and and systematize the work enough that we're we're basically asking you to add, you know, five to ten minutes of work a day to this strategy, and that should be worthwhile to take a test, and it's not gonna interfere with anything you're doing. And then you're right. Just, you know, call me back in two months. And then if the equity curve sucks, then don't do it.
Michael:But I think, yeah, that would be the motivating factor for me anyway. If I saw even, you know, a very small account, a couple thousand dollar account doing well based off that, then I'm like, okay, well, it's it's that's the that would be the motivation I would need personally to step it up.
Dave:Yeah. And going from the other direction, the motivation is pretty easy because you'll find some days where like like one of the strategies I trade, I can I know I know when these signals come and I put my entire account at risk because I know these are very, very profitable signals that come along and they come along, I don't know, probably five times a week? When they come, I'm so confident because I've done the math and I know this strategy really well. I'm using every bit of buying power I have every time. So like I said, it's a completely different mindset from the mindset that I had ten years ago, but it's very profitable to have both of these types of strategies running and be comfortable with both of them.
Michael:Yeah. And I think so I think we've successfully queued people up for that buying power strategy because I had a bunch of questions about that, but I think that would be better in the buying power kind of strategy podcast because that I think is kind of the next questions or the next, area to lead this to because the question would be, okay. Well, you know, is it a good enough strategy that you liquidate current holdings in order to take, or do you just take whatever the whatever you have sitting around and and plow that in and and how you balance that? And that's I think I know it's gonna be a good episode because I'm interested to to hear that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Michael:I'm currently not doing that. I just kind of take, you know, the as many trades I can with the buying power I have. And if one shows up and I'm in positions, I just go, okay, I'm gonna miss that one. But, I think that'll be a really cool topic. So to kinda summarize this one for everyone is just, you know, there are two camps.
Michael:And like with anything, there is a binary between those two camps. Like with most things, I don't think the answer is to be in one camp or the other. It's it is some, you know, if you look at it as kind of a spectrum, you exist somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. If you want to be a little bit more on one side, a little more on the other. But, if you find yourself on one side, you're probably doing it wrong and you got to have a plan to push yourself over in the other direction.
Michael:So at least to experiment anyway.
Dave:Yeah, like I said, I wouldn't say they're doing it wrong, but you're walling yourself off from a whole bunch of strategies that could work for you if you get out of the mindset. One thing I like to tell people is just imagine your life depended on you creating a strategy in this other bucket. What would it look like? How would From your experience and what you've traded and what strategies you know, how would you create something that's in the other bucket? And imagine your life dependent on coming up with something that bucket that's very different than what you're doing.
Michael:Yeah. And, you know, we talk about it all the time. As soon as you do something outside of what you normally do, At the very least, if if none of the things that we say work and and there is no world in where you're gonna trade more higher frequency but less optimal strategies, by doing it, you're gonna probably gonna open up some questions. Right? So maybe that guy doesn't go from all trade, you know, all all implement strategies that are under, like, 1.5 r.
Michael:You don't you don't pull them from only trading really, you know, high end strategies to to maybe some of these more high frequency strategies, but maybe move them from three r to maybe says, you know what? I'll I'll let in a 2.5 r strategy now. Right? And it it you look at that as kind of a victory. Right?
Michael:Don't you don't have to go all the way to the other camp, but, you know, maybe a step here or there, opens you up. And at the very least, it's gonna give you more questions. Right? You and that's for us, I think, the most important part is is as a systematic traders to have questions to then go answer. Because as soon as you have things that you're interested in, that's gonna lead you down a path, and that path is probably gonna lead you down to more strategies.
Michael:And then for more strategies, right, it ends up becoming more money. So, yeah, just do something outside your outside your wheelhouse once in a while, right?
Dave:Yeah. And here we are. Here I am getting ready to plug another one of our episodes that we've plugged before about creating your own trading groups. But this is a this is a really, really good way to collaborate with other traders. Somebody who's in the other camp than you are, that is where really good collaboration can happen because you're coming at it from completely different angles.
Dave:You have completely different mindsets. Hopefully you're both really profitable already in these completely different camps. And if build trust with other traders like that and come up with a collaboration, there's really some great things that come from that.
Michael:So yeah, keep keep playing, keep exploiting things, right? I think it's, you know, keep exploring, keep going down different paths and talking to different traders. And even if you're not swayed to do something new, at least you'll be kind of swayed to to answer more questions. And I, for one, I think whatever we were planning on doing next, I think we should pencil in the buying power episode because I think that'll be a good one.
Dave:I think we're pretty much obligated to now.
Michael:Okay. Alright, guys. Well, until next time, I'm Michael Noss.
Dave:And I'm Dave May. We'll talk to you next week on LINE YOUR OWN Pockets.
Creators and Guests
