Line Your Own Pockets

Michael: 00:00

Okay, everyone. Well, welcome to another episode of Line Your Own Pockets. I had some really cool kind of conversations. I liked a lot of the last one talking to Bella and all of that. And now we're going to talk a little bit more about a trader that Dave knows who has an interesting way of taking a model that he's built and transitioning it live.

Michael: 00:21

We talked a little bit about this kinda off screen. I thought it was interesting, so I just wanted to flip the camera live. Completely different from, I think, both of our methods, which is one thing that's really cool when it comes to this kind of trading is that you're not hearing someone do something completely different and, like, faux pas ing it. I think it got both of me and Dave thinking a bit. So why don't you go into this trader and then why he's so different and what we can learn from it?

Dave: 00:48

Yeah. So this is a guy that trades at S and B Capital, somebody I've known for a while and really interesting guy. We talk a good bit. His name is John M. It's the it's I'm not gonna say his last name, but John M.

Dave: 01:02

He trades about, I think, like, 35 different models. He's got 35 different models running live. Been doing this a while.

Michael: 01:14

Well, let's let's I think that's a great place to start. So first of all, I think, you know, highlights the benefit one of the benefits of systematic trading because there's no way a human being could trade 36 different trading styles without some extreme level of of systemization. Now when it comes to those models, if you know a little bit about them, is how how much are when I hear 36 models, I think, okay, is one just a variation of another? Right? Is it like all gap strategies and just different variations of them?

Michael: 01:49

Or are these just like he's found 36 unique edge opportunities in the market over his years of doing it?

Dave: 01:56

I don't know. But my sense is that he has a wide variety of models here. Probably some overlap a little bit, but this isn't like one idea split up 36 different ways. He's got a very well rounded intuition about the market. So a lot of these I'm sure are somewhat correlated, but a lot of them I'm sure are not correlated.

Dave: 02:28

And he's got a whole to do list of new models that he's working on. And that's actually, that's the biggest problem he has is prioritizing the stuff he wants to work on.

Michael: 02:39

And I love that as, again, just to demonstrate it, there's no physical possible way a discretionary trader could do that. But also, shows that you're not running out of work, which I think is is something weird that happens the more I talk to system or try to get people into systematic trading. They think they're gonna be like, oh, I'm I'm putting myself out of a job. But if that guy's got 36 models and tons that he still wants to test and potentially build and deploy, just shows you that you are you're not getting replaced there. You're just moving to something else.

Michael: 03:15

He's spending his day now probably full, probably could work twelve hours a day if he wanted to on testing and building new things. And also just shows there's just so many different ways to skin this cat that it's you're not gonna be trading the same model someone else is. Just not going to. There's just so many different ways to do it.

Dave: 03:34

It kind of reminds me of when we started this podcast, where I came to you with this idea and you were like, are there, are we going to run out of ideas here?

Michael: 03:42

That's what I did.

Dave: 03:43

I'm like, I don't think so. And I think, I guess it's, as we've shown here, we've been going for more than a year. And our list is growing. Our to do list is growing. There's stuff we wanna talk about.

Michael: 03:55

Yeah. No.

Dave: 03:56

Were same way with trading.

Michael: 03:57

You were right. And that was the conversation. I remember you called me. You said we should do a, you know, I don't know many systematic traders that have, you know, front facing or public facing kind of identities. And I'm like, yeah.

Michael: 04:10

And in my head, was thinking, what do you do? Maybe 10 or 20 and then you start running of ideas. And Dave was like, no, trust me on this. And yeah, 100% right.

Dave: 04:19

Yeah. And I think it's the same way with trading models and trading strategies. They just like, as you get them think as you get them live, as you you start watching them, once you have a good process, you never run out of ideas. It's it's like like I said, this guy's got 35 models, and his only problem is biggest problem is he he has more ideas than he can deal with, and he's trying to figure out how to deal with that.

Michael: 04:46

And what an amazing problem to have because he's you hear this all the time of people, and we did a whole thing on it on, like, edge erosion and and things like that. Oh, I have this thing that I do, and that thing makes me a lot of money. And then the fear of what happens if that thing stops working and then stops making me money. This guy doesn't have that because he if he's constantly working, eventually, you only have so much capital. So of those 36 models, there's not gonna be one model that's doing 95% of his income.

Michael: 05:18

So if one model just stops performing, that's okay because he's just constantly, you know, working on the other side to to shore that up.

Dave: 05:27

Yeah. So he has a very interesting way that he goes live with models. So you can imagine, you know, he he's gotta have a pretty tight process to manage all this.

Michael: 05:38

Yes.

Dave: 05:40

He uses GitHub, like you and I talked about before, which is great. I wanna do some more content around that because it's probably, I think, the most underrated tool for active systematic traders. It's really just fantastic when you use it right. So at this point, I want to make sure listeners go back to to our episode where we talked about the different versions of a strategy, like which which way is the best way to trade this strategy. You probably find the title of it more quickly than I can, but I think that's a good one to go back and think about Some of the things we talked about in that episode are going to be turned on its head based on the way John operates.

Dave: 06:32

Basically, the approach is, you've got a strategy, you've got an idea, you've done a backtest. John is a big Strategy Cruncher user, so he uses the Cruncher to figure out where the strategy has edge. And you get multiple versions of a strategy. And you try That's basically what you're doing. You're trying to decide, okay, what version of this strategy should I go live with?

Dave: 06:57

And what we talked about on that episode was starting from a wider starting point trading something small but with more trades going through it with the thought that once you get that live, you'll watch it, you'll figure out over time the real time trades that come through, you'll start having more intuition and you'll be able to apply a rule that jumps out at you and makes sense to you from that point. So John takes a different approach.

Michael: 07:36

Okay.

Dave: 07:37

He takes the approach of very quickly optimizing something, coming up with a smaller subset that looks really good in the back test, he's not even thinking that much about curve fitting. Like he just wants to get something that is a small subset that looks really good with the thought that, yeah, there's probably gonna be a little bit of curve fitting there. He's gonna go back he's definitely gonna go back later and really dial in the rules. But instead of going live with a really wide net, he's going with a smaller a much smaller subset with the express intent of watching that small subset and widening it over time. So I thought it was just such a great approach.

Dave: 08:28

It's something that I've never I've not thought about it quite in those terms. And there's a lot of trade offs, which we'll get into, but I wanna hear what you think about that, Michael.

Michael: 08:41

Yeah. So first, I did look up the the episode, and it's just on YouTube called Which System to Trade. And the idea is that, you know, you presented a bunch of systems, one that had a lot of trades, one that had a little trade. And and we kind of said, okay, Generally speaking, you go with that wide net and then narrowed in. And just to reiterate, he's doing the exact opposite.

Michael: 09:01

So he's almost intentionally curve fitting, I could say would maybe make sense where he is just show me the equity curve that looks the best, that only trades a little bit, and then and then go from there. My initial reaction, I was kind of if this was just some guy off the street, I think I probably wouldn't have thought as deeply about it. But the fact that it's a successful trader who's got multiple strategies, who obviously does this for this, how he feeds himself, it made me think of of the reasons potentially why. So that was gonna be my main question of of what is do you think is the the key advantage to this? Because my worry is that by doing this, when it comes to tracking the trades in real time, you're tracking only the trades that you took.

Michael: 09:56

So what you're what you might find if you kind of curve fit it in a in a weird way is that you look at the strategy and you trade it and you're like, okay, these trades aren't very good, but you're only tracking that small subset of trades you actually took, whereas the rest of them in kind of that wider net may have been may have been good. And then also, I think what really irks me is just as as a as a stats guy, it's like the antithesis of what you're taught, which is that you always want to, you know, if you're surveying the average height of a person, you just want to ask as many people from as many broad sections of whatever as you can. So, but because, right, we know this guy and we know he's successful, it it it's I wanna dive in deeper and see, I don't know, maybe something I'll I'll keep an eye on. So what what does he think the main benefit of doing it this way as opposed to the normal or traditional way?

Dave: 10:50

I can see a couple of different advantages here. So think about when you have a new idea. You're still what I call stuck in backtest world. You're stuck in the theoretical. Sometimes if you have a perfectionist tendencies, you're going to stay there a long time thinking about, okay, which rules to apply, which rules not to apply.

Dave: 11:18

I could apply this and basically get the same set of trades. I could apply this and get the same set of trades. You're almost you're almost stuck with with several good decisions you can make. But like, which one do you make?

Michael: 11:36

So I always like to compare this to the the new trader who's and we've all seen it, who's got, like, a billion different indicators on his screen. And he gets stuck never taking a trade because he's like, well, the RSI is telling me this, and the MACDs, and the the moving average is telling me this. And it's that analysis kind of paralysis that you get. Yeah. And I think our version of that is just what you mentioned is that you're you're constantly tweaking with the strategy as opposed to just go.

Michael: 12:02

So that that I could see is a big benefit is that you're just Yeah. You're from backtest to trading in, like, a day. Like, just let's get to it kind of thing.

Dave: 12:11

Yeah. So I think this is an advanced move. It's not for beginning traders because and I think that's mainly because don't have beginning traders don't have a good process for doing the kind of analysis that allows you to look at the trades just beyond the boundaries of your rules to see where there's edge that you could add. That's a really hard thing to be able to do. You know what you were saying earlier, you're only taking what you're seeing.

Dave: 12:46

So it's hard to see beyond that unless you have a really good process for it. And by this point, John does have a really good process for that. So I that like the kind of a shortcut to going live. It's like another step that prevents you from being stuck in this backtest world where you're not actually making progress and not making the steps toward doing the real learning once you start trading live. So I like this approach, but I wouldn't suggest it for everybody.

Michael: 13:23

So I guess that so that already dispelled my kind of first fear of it, I guess, is that he's got a way to go. And probably and this is as I was saying, I was thinking of it. He could very easily run the back test for that day and then run it wide, run it without a lot of the optimizations in it to see the trades that he didn't take, to see if he, you know, was sad that he didn't take them or whether or, you know, whether he was he was okay doing it. So that makes sense. And I really do like the idea of just get in there and trade because I'm when we talked about this a couple times that I would rather take a strategy that's suboptimal and at least paper trade it if you're not comfortable doing it with real money and just start that process quickly.

Michael: 14:07

Because like we've mentioned is that there's you generally you don't know what you don't know until you're until you're into it. Sometimes by doing that and saying, okay. Yes. Now now that I'm in it and I it makes sense to me, now I'm gonna be more interested in it. I can notice things as the trades come in.

Michael: 14:25

I can I can notice maybe some problems that may arise by actually seeing a trade? So that's one big benefit is he's gonna be live trading way faster than than someone who went slower. But Yeah. Other than that, I because I I could see, like, what's stopping you from just doing that anyway. What's stopping you from just doing one little optimization that narrows it a little bit and doesn't really curve fit and then getting into it.

Dave: 14:49

Yeah. The more I started thinking about this preparing for this episode, the more I knew we were gonna start talking about curve fitting, which we have we got a whole series of episodes I wanna do on that because it is by far the most misunderstood topic. People are people People kinda go crazy talking about it, and there's all this gibberish that people say about it, which doesn't make any sense when in the real world. It's so the fact that he's, you know, quote, unquote, curve fitting a little bit to make a strategy live, I don't put any stock into like, curve fitting is so overrated. I hear I hear people I hear so many traders just completely stuck by curve fitting in a way that there's no they should not be.

Michael: 15:38

And then, you know, I think that also goes to your point that this isn't a new person. So he's not going to when I think of curve fitting anyway, it's a good it's a good series to do, I think. But when I think of curve fitting, I think of someone putting in something that would be just, like, stupid. Like, he's trying to scalp for a minute and he's put in like, what's the dividend yield last year or something ridiculous. So the fact that this person is an experienced trader, there's a certain level of the columns are telling him one thing, and he is even though it's really, really quickly, he's checking that off in his brain that, okay, that makes sense.

Michael: 16:14

That makes sense. He's not gonna throw something in there just because the number does it. But just kind of for argument's sake, the fact that, like, narrowing it down that quickly, you know, you you mentioned that, hey, he gets to trade it quickly, but I think you could do that with a with a wide back test as well. Right? Couldn't you?

Michael: 16:32

You do you know, you put in one filter or two filters and he could, he could still go with it. Then why, go that tight that, that quick?

Dave: 16:42

Okay. So here's, here's a problem that I've run into that could be avoided. So if you've got a lot of models and you go forward with one with a wider net than you think is really optimal, but just in the interest of moving things along, put it live. Let's say that one trades for a while and it doesn't do well because, and you know it's probably because of the wide net, like you're taking too many trades. If you like, and let's say some time goes by and you kind of forget what you were thinking about that.

Dave: 17:20

And you're just looking at that in comparison to some of your other models. If you've got a whole bunch of models, it looks like it's going to suck bad compared to the other ones, right? And if enough time has gone by, you're in a completely different context. Your mind is completely in a different context, thinking about another strategy probably. You forgot a little bit.

Dave: 17:44

You're not in the zone about this one strategy. Unless you've taken really good notes and documented it in GitHub, I recommend traders do, you're not gonna have the same context. And when you see an equity curve that's going down or much worse than the backtest, man, it really seems like, wow, that sucks. The strategy sucks. It's not doing what I thought it was going to do.

Dave: 18:12

There's something about that that is gonna kind of rule the day in your mind. And you're like, man, this this strategy sucks. But and so you avoid that situation by taking this other approach, which I think would be good.

Michael: 18:26

See, now that that makes a lot of sense to me. And again, more context of him being a, you know, a a professional trader with lots of strategies is that he's not if you were a new trader coming in, you're comparing your strategy versus like zero, right? You're saying, Okay, this strategy makes money. The money sitting under my mattress does not. When you're a professional with 36 strategies in it, you're comparing your strategy versus all the other ones.

Michael: 18:54

Right? You know, this strategy that he just made could be good and have like a 1.5 or 1.25 profit factor, which for a losing trader, you give them a 1.15 profit factor. It's it's better than nothing. But if he's comparing that to a whole bunch of two profit factors and it's 1.25, then he goes, Okay, it sucks. So it that makes a lot of sense where he's the bar to become something interesting to apply his limited capital to is higher than it is for someone who's just coming there and has a whole bunch of free capital already.

Michael: 19:28

And anything that makes any amount of money for them is a good thing. So that to me makes a lot of sense where he's going to try to refine that down really quickly, because if not, it's almost like he's just he wouldn't be motivated to monitor it as well. So it's almost like the argument that people make for paper trading, where if you're paper trading, you don't have anything on the line, you're you're just not as motivated to to really do the work. But if you're someone like him, he's like, well, I can risk real money with it, even though it might not be a huge amount of money because I just need to get it above that bar of everything else I'm doing so that it gets the time and attention that it deserves.

Dave: 20:07

Yeah. Yeah, thought about I think it's a phase you go through. You mentioned paper trading there. I think it's a phase you go through where early on you're like, Yeah, paper trading. I don't really like it.

Dave: 20:21

You've progressed to a point where you're like, yeah, I need some money on the line. But I think as you progress further and you get more models and you get more perspective, I think you come to start liking paper trading again because you realize that there's a path to confidence that it's almost like hobbyists don't like paper trading. But once you level up, you come to appreciate it again.

Michael: 20:56

Yeah. No, I would agree with that. It's because there is a you know, I think it's only because you know what's the future holds if it works. Right? That's that's the big thing.

Michael: 21:08

As somebody who's never made any money trading, it makes way more sense that they are, you know, like, okay, well, or have failed, I guess, would be even better. They're saying, okay. Well, everything else I've done sucked. So now I'm just doing something that in their mind has no ability to make the money, but you've been doing it for some time. You say, okay.

Michael: 21:28

Yes. This does have the ability to make me money. It's just gonna just gonna take a bit and then kind of go from there. So that to me again, yeah, that makes a lot of sense that why I just know from my experience at at trade ideas and other places where we desperately have tried to get people, especially like unprofitable people, to paper trade and just have not been able to do it, that it becomes really, really hard to kind of force them to sit down and do it.

Dave: 21:59

Yeah. I it requires a little bit of humility that some new traders don't have that. So you can understand the value of paper trading again. So it reminds me there's this other phase that I haven't I don't think we've talked about this, but I wanted to mention this to get people's thoughts. So I was listening to a podcast about AI and LLMs.

Dave: 22:28

And they were predicting what the next few years are gonna look like for LLMs and the progress they're gonna make. And at some point they're going to become agentic where they're doing their own stuff. Right.

Michael: 22:46

And

Dave: 22:48

they're doing things autonomously on their own without human intervention. At the beginning of that stage, there's a phase where they're going to have what they call poor research taste. So what does that mean? They're going to have the ability to work on stuff, but they're not going to have enough discernment. They're not going to have enough intuition to be working on the right things.

Dave: 23:20

So they're going to have poor research tastes. They're not going to be researching the right kind of things. They're still going to need some human interaction to point them in the right direction. Okay. I see a lot of traders who don't have great strategy taste.

Dave: 23:39

Like they have some ideas, they've got maybe a lot of ideas, but they're lower on the curve on this, Like, they're basically not working on the right set of strategies yet. They're not thinking about the right set of strategies yet. Part of your development as a trader is improving your strategy taste. What are the things that are actually not just fleeting thoughts, but strategies that are actually gonna make money over time, strategies that you can have a path to confidence in, strategies that you can leverage up in. I mean, one of the things I like to say is the strategy that you're going to make the most money from in your trading career, you probably haven't thought of yet.

Michael: 24:30

Which is very hopeful, right? And you're not just saying that for the new trader, you're saying that for everybody.

Dave: 24:36

That's exactly right.

Michael: 24:37

Yeah, whether you've been doing it for a year or your entire life, you still have that area to go.

Dave: 24:44

And part of that for that to be true is you have to have a good process for evaluating strategies. And you have to be on this path of improving your strategy taste over time. And the more strategies you think of, the more strategies you test, the more traders you interact with, the better your strategy taste is going to get over time. Now,

Michael: 25:12

you know, going back to this person is, do you think this is his way of of kind of helping with that or or some knowledge that he has when it comes to that strategy taste where he is going to much quicker and be more okay going with a base idea to really optimizing the crap out of it to trading it because he's developed that taste way better than somebody who has just started. And I think another thing to ask is that other than just, you know, doing the work and building strategies and over time, for the the inevitable question we'll get in the comments, which, again, we love the questions in the comments of how would you develop that taste. Now, you know, if this guy is 36 strategies deep, for him, it just seems like it was he's been doing it a long time. But if someone specifically had that mission in mind, what what do you think would be that the the best way of going about doing that?

Dave: 26:10

Yeah. I think the more strategies you interact with, the more strategies you test, the more strategies you test well enough to get live, the better your strategy taste is going to be over time. And John, I can tell has excellent strategy taste. But I think that that doesn't mean that he can get a lot better and he's doing exactly the right thing to improve his strategy taste even more and to get better and better. I mean, I was I was on there's a show that S and P puts on called Bionic Trader.

Dave: 26:52

I was on there about a month ago. And one of the things we talked about, Garrett and I, was trading is actually pretty easy if you don't really trade with a lot of size. The real hard part is, I mean, it's not easy, but it's much easier. But if you're trying to trade with a lot of size, you're trying to leverage something up, you have to come up with ideas that are worth and that you can recognize have the ability to scale. And if you're not thinking about that with every strategy you run, like what is my path confidence?

Dave: 27:45

Which means what is the path where I can scale this strategy big time and make a lot of money from it? And what does a strategy look like that has that ability? What does a strategy look like that doesn't quite have that ability? That's really the ultimate goal with what you're trying to do. It doesn't matter how many strategies you trade, really.

Dave: 28:14

What you're really looking for is ones where you can really scale up in a big way. That's going to make your career, that's

Michael: 28:21

make your, you know, that that that's

Dave: 28:24

gonna going allow you to save for retirement and and live the life that you wanna live.

Michael: 28:29

Yeah. The the swinging the bat hard as as Bell put it. So, and that, think, is also something that is possibly, I wouldn't say unique, but special to someone like that who trades, you know, with kind of firm capital and and things like that. And then the guys over at SMB is they have to think about that, I think, way sooner and way quicker than everyone else. If you're someone out there who's got a $100 or something you're trading, you need to think of the upward limits that are reasonable for you in a reasonable period of time.

Michael: 29:04

But if you're at a firm and they're like, listen, if your strategy is good enough, we'll give you millions and millions and almost unlimited capital until the strategy falls apart. That becomes a completely different kind of beast that you you have to tackle. So what I think is a great takeaway from from this and what this guy's doing is just saying that, hey, he's kind of figured out his unique set of circumstances and has found this tool to to push them in. Because like as we said, probably not this whole like whole going really, really tight really, really quickly, probably isn't best for the new trader. And it's probably not best for the guy who doesn't have any other strategies to trade, and it's probably not best maybe even for the guy who doesn't have a lot of capital.

Michael: 29:47

But it to me shows that a lot of the the systematic trading talk is like, oh, well, if you have the strategy, that's all that matters. You put the strategy and you you plug that in, you make some money. And what we're talking about a lot here is that this person has a different set of circumstances, and they're at a different stage in their their trading career, and they have different capital that they have allocated to them. So the way they're gonna do things is gonna be different from somebody who's completely on the other end of the spectrum and understanding that just like, you know, you have to make the system your own, even if it's a system that you kind of got the idea somewhere else, you have to make your process for building systems completely your own based off your own set of circumstances and where you are.

Dave: 30:30

Yeah, I agree. And another thing that John is doing is he's very intentionally seeking out other traders in the firm to collaborate with, bounce ideas off of, work on an idea together. He's specifically working with another trader in the firm that has a, I would say, similar process, but not exactly the same. It's like in a different neighborhood, I would say. But able to talk each other's language and they can help each other stretch in ways that each of them couldn't do on their own.

Dave: 31:17

So I think that, you know, a collaboration like that is quite good. As we've talked about many times on the show, you want somebody to collaborate with that you don't want a carbon copy of yourself. That's not going to really be helpful. I mean, could maybe be helpful in the short term, but what you really want is somebody that brings a completely different set of skills to the table. And that's the sort of collaboration that can really, yield some good results.

Michael: 31:46

Well, and pushback. Right? I think I always think the best and we've, we've even seen it with with some of the numbers with the podcast. And sometimes the most fun ones is when we just completely disagree with each other because you can disagree. And then but that's usually where kind of growth happens from is that, you know, you have two people with contrary opinions and both of them are probably wrong.

Michael: 32:11

And then in the middle there somewhere, there's there's something that that is the the correct thing. So you can do that. And, I thought this was great. And again, the main takeaway, I think, for the listeners is just, you know, we'll talk about our process of doing things and and bring on and talk about other people's process of doing things. But the important thing is that that process is unique for where you are and what your goals are and what's your capital requirements and, you know, how long you've been doing this and and all of that.

Michael: 32:43

So don't just because somebody says, and then maybe even someone that you greatly respect says, I do this this way, then the it doesn't mean that that's the way to do it. That's the way that that person has found success with. It doesn't mean that's the way you have to do it and and kinda take that and learn from it and then maybe, you know, put in your own thing over time.

Dave: 33:04

Yeah. It can be intimidating for new traders to, you know, hear us say, Hey, just be unique. Right? Like being unique is really hard.

Michael: 33:14

But

Dave: 33:16

it's actually, I believe easier than most people think. Like, it's just, you know, be you and you have a unique set of skills that nobody else in the world has. You've had a unique experience that nobody else in the world has had and ever will. So you bring something unique, not just you, Michael, but everybody brings something unique that only they have the perspective to bring to bear. So it's not as hard as most traders think to be completely unique.

Dave: 33:54

In fact, you probably already are in a lot of ways and you don't realize it.

Michael: 33:58

Yeah. It's well, it's funny. I had a doctor's appointment, and there was, like, a medical tech there, and it was a was talking to me about and I think she had seen me on something on YouTube or whatever, we were talking about finance or whatever. And they said they were interested in getting into it and, you know, wanted some advice. And I said, listen, you deal in medical sales your whole life.

Michael: 34:22

I was like, if you want to get into this, and it was more not day trading or anything like that, more, hey, I've got some money and I just want to put it into things. I'm like, you have knowledge in this sector that most people, 99% of the world don't. So I'm like, you should stick there. I don't, you know, don't invest in energy companies or something silly. Find companies that are making new medical devices or or whatever inside of your niche and and focus really in on that.

Michael: 34:48

And then I met the person again, I think a year later, and they kinda thanked me for that advice. They're like, you know, I'm I'm not I was I was following a guy who was reading charts or whatever, and I said, don't do that. Right? You know this thing. So so utilize that thing and and find the company that's gonna disrupt the space and and and put your money there.

Dave: 35:08

Yeah. Yeah. So it reminds me of, you know, more and more traders reach out to me to they want me to coach them. And a lot of times, the first thing I'll do is try to talk them out of it. Or just understand why they want me to coach them.

Dave: 35:28

What is their situation here? Let me give you three or four ways you could do this yourself without me. It So does take people off guard a bit when I I take that approach.

Michael: 35:42

Yeah. So, yeah, I think this was great. I think this is a good conversation. I think it should open some minds about, you know, maybe find some different ways to do things. Did you have anything else to add?

Michael: 35:54

It looks like you're you're jumping there.

Dave: 35:56

Yeah. So I think John's a great guy. He we I would love to have him on the podcast at some point.

Michael: 36:02

So John, if you're listening, come on. Come on over.

Dave: 36:06

Yeah, we'll, we'll figure out how to make that happen at some point because he's super fun to talk to and a really interesting guy. He'd be great on here.

Michael: 36:14

Cool. And I, yeah, and I love, I love the different ways of doing things, right? Especially when there's a record of, you know, proven success means whatever you're doing, it might not be good for me, it might not be even optimal in general, but at least the perspective is unique and it works. Therefore, there's there's kind of a way to go with it and a way that that has made sense for you. So, as always, appreciate everyone for coming by.

Michael: 36:42

And I'm Michael Doss.

Dave: 36:44

And I'm Dave Mabe. We'll talk to you next week on Line Your Own Pockets.