Line Your Own Pockets

Michael: 00:00

Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode 5 of Line Your Own Pockets, where we help you create trading strategies with Edge. My name is Michael Doss, and I'm joined by my co host here.

Dave: 00:12

Dave Maithe.

Michael: 00:14

And, this episode, we're gonna follow-up and we're gonna expand upon a lot of what we talked about last episode, which was order types and how you can essentially get a lot of automated or systematic trading done right off the bat with just customizing your order types. We talked about a lot of the basics in the last episode, so if you missed that, definitely go check it out. But we talked a lot about, you know, limit orders, stop orders, those basic things, and how you could pretty much just set up a trade and have a system take care of it. In this episode, we're gonna go into more advanced order types. Some of these, we were talking in the green room before we got started.

Michael: 00:54

Some of these, I hadn't heard of really before, so I imagine a lot of the audience won't as well.

Dave: 01:01

Yeah. So, I've got a list of 5 or 6 to go over here. These are some that I've come to start using over the years that when I started trading, I I had no idea. I kinda, lost over these, but I found really good uses for all these. And they're they're pretty interesting.

Dave: 01:22

So, I'm interested to hear if, Michael, you've used some of these and, if so, in what situation. So Yeah. Why don't we get started with the first one? And this is one I just started using fairly recently, the immediate or cancel or IOC orders. Mhmm.

Dave: 01:41

So these are orders where it's gonna execute immediately or immediately cancel. So, Michael, is this one that you've ever used before?

Michael: 01:54

No. And I'm trying to think of of the best way for that to be used. I'd imagine it would send out as a limit because the market would fill immediately anyway.

Dave: 02:05

Yeah. It's usually a limit order. So there's a couple of really good reasons to use this order. One is, you know, you want to get in the stock right now, and you're not interested if you can't get it right. There are certain strategies where that's the case.

Dave: 02:28

The other very important thing that this allows you to do is alright. Let's say you weren't using an IOC order. You were just using a limit order. And let's say you throw the limit out there and it doesn't fill right away.

Michael: 02:44

Mhmm.

Dave: 02:46

What do you have to do to continue watching that order over time. You're gonna have to take some you have to initiate some action to cancel it or adjust it. And that takes resources that, you know, you have to follow it. More importantly, if you're doing systematic trading, you have to code that. You have to remember to code you know, you have to have a, some logic in your code to make sure to go cancel that order, to go adjust it, to do something with it.

Dave: 03:21

This allows you to remove a lot of that programming logic. Just have the order. You don't have to worry about canceling it. You don't have to worry about partial fills, immediate or cancel. So that's it it can save a lot of programming, to use this type of order.

Michael: 03:38

So, so the way I'm I'm understanding this is essentially a way to you know, I wanna buy this stock and maybe the stocks, I'm buying a stock into Momentum, so it's moving in the direction that I want it to go. So I'm sending out this order, and if it's either too liquid or it's moved too far since I've got it and I'm not gonna get the fill. It just sends the order out, and if I don't get anything, it's gone. That the way just

Dave: 04:06

canceled it anyway. Yeah.

Michael: 04:07

So now that that makes perfect sense. I could see, even discretionary traders that are are doing that kind of momentum trading. So if you're, you know, trading like low flow movers or stocks that are running, you want to get that fill or not, it it seems like an order to use because you're right. I I've done it and I'm sure a lot of traders done it where you, you know, maybe you're trying to chase a stock a little bit as it's breaking a level and you're and you're firing out some limit orders and you forget to cancel 1. And then later in the day, you find you get filled on on something you don't want.

Michael: 04:39

So I think that's a good and it will it will also cancel any bracket orders around that as well. So if you have a stop loss or a a target in there.

Dave: 04:48

Yeah. It's the same behavior for any child orders you have underneath it or any, you know, other orders in the OCA group would be the same situation.

Michael: 04:58

Yeah. I I haven't used that one, but I'm already starting to think of some, strategies that I have that would benefit for that because they are you know, they're they're looking to get involved in something as it breaks a level, and I either I either want it right there and right then, or I don't want it at all. So I I like that one.

Dave: 05:17

Cool. Alright. So let's go to the next one. This is all or none. All or none order.

Dave: 05:24

So and this is I think both of these cases, it's like a checkbox underneath an order type. So not like an order type in itself, but it's a specific property you set on the order type. So all or none, that means you're gonna fill the entire order or none at all. So have you ever used this or thought about it? This is a this is even less a little bit more obscure, but there's a good situation for for this one too.

Michael: 05:52

This one I've I've heard about and I've seen used before, but I haven't really used myself. And, you know, the reason I I thought about this, not you or I haven't used it myself, is just because kind of in my head, I'm like, well, you know, if I if I could get 90% of the position, I probably want that. But I think you're gonna have a unique reason why sometimes even if you could get 90% of the position, you're probably not gonna you're not gonna wanna do that.

Dave: 06:20

Yeah. So here's the situation where, you might wanna use this order. So let's say you've got a a large position and you're trying to get out. If you didn't use all or none and you put an order out there that's gonna fill, sometimes you'll see all your executions will be will, like, you know, move the market, and you'll get bills, like, all the way up, like, almost a stair step

Michael: 06:52

Mhmm.

Dave: 06:52

At a whole bunch of different levels if the order is big enough. And sometimes that takes time for that to fill. So you would use this order type to have that all in a single execution without any, signal to the market that you're trying to execute a big order and have some shenanigans or, you know, have, other people notice that and realize what you're trying to do. So it's a pretty obscure situation, but it does come in handy in the right.

Michael: 07:31

So another situation where you'd be trying to buy above the current market, this would be a good order for it. If it was a a regular limit order, in which you're you're hoping that price comes down to that order, probably, yes, less useful there. But if it's something that you're trying to again trade in the direction of momentum, what you're saying is it's a good way to make sure that the market doesn't detect that, hey. This is someone who's trying to come in and sweep a bunch of prices. Yep.

Michael: 08:01

Now how does I'm interested in in kind of the mechanics of that. So how would the broker know that it's going to you know, with all the hidden orders and and weird things going on in the market, how does it know, yes, it's possible to get all of the order or none of the order? How how does that kinda logic work on their end?

Dave: 08:21

That's a great question that's, plays right into my next point about the order. This is this order is not implemented at the exchange. So this is all this is an internalized order. So the broker would be they may or may not offer this order. Mhmm.

Dave: 08:37

And it's because they these are for orders that they're internalizing, so they will have that logic in place, and they'll be able to fill they'll know whether they'll

Michael: 08:47

be able to fill the whole order or not. Okay. So if you're trading with Interactive Brokers, for example, they will look at it and they will say, do they have an order on the other side of that that they could fill it with? If yes, send the order. If no, hold it back.

Dave: 09:03

Yeah. Okay.

Michael: 09:05

Because I I was just wondering because, you know, and I think you're gonna go over these, hidden orders as well. Right? Sometimes it looks like there's no liquidity at a price, and there's actually much more than there is. So I was just wondering how how it did that. So that's that's interesting.

Michael: 09:19

And, again, a good way, you'll notice a lot of these, are ways to try to get in and out of the market without disturbing it at all, which as you become a larger and larger trader, these little things can add up, so don't sleep on them where, you know, for example, you have a, you know, you're you're in a lower price stock and maybe the difference between getting filled kind of sneakily like this or getting or just, you know, blasting out a market order and doing whatever could be the difference of 1 or 2% on the actual stock itself. And then even if it's, you know, say a quarter percent, you extrapolate that out and you say, okay, if I lose a quarter percent or even a 10th percent many times across many orders at the end of the year, it really adds up doing, making sure that you're you're doing this, you know, a little bit I don't wanna say sneakily, but, you know, you're you're hiding your true intentions.

Dave: 10:14

Yeah. I mean, I think I think that even understates it a bit. Like, I think certain order types allow you to trade certain strategies that you otherwise would be able to trade profitably at all. So I think you'd probably be surprised if you've looked at some of the trades I get in and how light they're traded. You'd probably be shocked.

Dave: 10:38

And that's because I think a lot about the order types I'm using and know what where I'm gonna get filled with some pretty light names. And, I mean, there's just no question that I I can think of 2 or 3 strategies I trade right now that I just wouldn't be able to do without some fancy order types that I use to to get the fills that I wanna get.

Michael: 11:01

Well and that leads you another point that I think is fantastic in which, you know, most traders they get in there and they say, well, I wanna trade the Apples and the Googles and the Invidias and and that type of thing in the world. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but generally speaking, the higher the more liquid the name you're trying to trade, the more efficient it is as well. So the less you'll have, you know, outsized moves one way or the other. Now, you know, trading things that are illiquid can certainly be dangerous. That's why, you know, we're talking about ways that you can you can protect yourself one way or the other.

Michael: 11:36

But to get really crazy outside moves, you probably have to dip your toe at least somewhat away from these giant, type names. Right? And, you know, these giant names may be good from a longer term perspective or an investment or or something like that, but, if you're trying to make outsized returns, you know, very, very quickly on on some names, then, yeah, it definitely makes sense to kind of, you know, zoom out a little bit and try to look to see, hey. Is there places in the market that are just not as efficiently priced as, again, your apples and that type of thing.

Dave: 12:10

Yeah. It's a good point. Alright. Let's go to the next one. So, the next one's a hidden order.

Dave: 12:18

So, Michael, do you use hidden orders ever?

Michael: 12:21

I do. Right? That's one that I've I've used, all the way back when I was prop trading. It's when these kind of order types started to pop up, either iceberg or or just fully off book off book order type. So this is one that I'll use from time to time.

Michael: 12:38

If I'm trading something that's a liquid and I wanna kinda offer out at a at a a price that, you know, I think should be able to be achieved, but, again, it's a little bit of liquid, so I wanna make sure I I don't exist there. So,

Dave: 12:53

here's a quiz for you. Question. Why don't you just use hidden for all your orders? Right? Just make them hidden from the the market.

Dave: 13:03

You you never show your size or anything for your orders, so you don't participate in bubble 2. Why not just do that for all of them?

Michael: 13:11

Well, I don't know if this is the same south of the border, but up here in Canada, there's a a pretty I wouldn't say substantial, but there's an additional cost to those. Now that, again, it may be different depending where you are, but in Canada, we banned payment for order flow. So everything's done based off an old commission models, and the commissions are just a little bit higher on the other one. So if the market is incredibly liquid, I'll just save a couple bucks and and get in or out.

Dave: 13:37

Okay. So here, there's no difference in cost, like, commission cost, but there is a trade off, a very important trade off that comes with hiding your orders. And that is they are deprioritized in the trading queue. So orders that aren't hidden will have priority over orders that are hidden. So that reason alone makes you really think about whether you wanna hide an order or not because you're gonna be in the back of the line when it comes to getting the fill that you wanna get.

Michael: 14:12

Yeah. That was gonna be my my second point, and and that I would say matters way more if you're trying to be, if the the order book is liquid. So I guess this is kind of the opposite of what we were talking about before. If you're trying to trade at a price and you don't think there's gonna be anybody else or not very many people there at all, then, yeah, hiding your order, that would be less detrimental that, you know, if there's no one there and and you're deprioritized, then then who really cares? But this goes back.

Michael: 14:43

If we do use the example of the Apples and NVIDias, If you're trying to get filled at a price, every single price that Apple trades at, there is many, many other people already at that price. So you're right. You'll be kinda absolutely last and it basically has to go through that price in order to to get that fill. Yeah. So that again, so a lot of lot of these, I I think the the audience should just pay attention to vary a lot based off, a, your goal with the individual trade, but, b, the liquidity of the instrument as well.

Michael: 15:14

You know, hidden orders are gonna work better. You know, some of these orders are working better on illiquid securities. Some of them may be more prioritized with liquid securities. So, yeah, you really gotta know what it is that you're you're getting into, which should be decided, which I'm sure we'll cover later by, whatever whatever algorithm you're running. It should have some sort of I'm looking in this kind of liquidity environment for trades.

Dave: 15:38

Yeah. And a lot of this, you'll get better and better at recognizing the situations with experience and just watching the trades you make, watching the different behavior that happens, and, you know, noticing things that are unusual and taking note of that and, you know, figuring out how you can just be more efficient with the trades you're you're making. So, yeah, I think it's you know, it might seem daunting to some listeners who think, gosh. This is a lot of stuff to know about, how much of this really matters. It'll matter in due time once you recognize the situation.

Dave: 16:16

So, you know, all this stuff is, I would say, optional, but really nice to know for, beginning traders.

Michael: 16:25

Yeah. And and fine tuning, you know, it's one of those, first, right, you develop a strategy, you develop a strategy with edge, and then when that exists, your whole goal is to try to further that edge and then milk that edge as far as you can. So, you know, doing things like you're talking about, okay, if I can get better fills on this strategy, maybe it goes from an okay strategy to an amazing strategy just from these little pushes. So these are are kind of 1% changers. But if you're if you're stacking up many 1% changers, then all of a sudden you have a massive advantage.

Michael: 17:03

Something that had, again, an okay edge could end up being your best trading strategy just because you're you're able to to get in out of that market a little bit more, a little bit more simply.

Dave: 17:13

Yeah. For sure. Alright. Let's go to the next one. So these next 3 are IB specific, so interactive brokers specific.

Dave: 17:24

The reason I like interactive brokers is their orders are extensive and their server held, And there's just lots of flexibility you get by using their their order types. And like I said earlier, if you're a programmer and you're you're, you know, automating some of your trades, it's gonna save a lot of programming to handle a lot of the edge cases if you use some of these order types. So it's really a big time saver in that regard. So this this next order, like I said, IV specific, it's the scale order. Have you ever looked at the scale order, Michael?

Michael: 18:05

No. This is one I haven't even heard of.

Dave: 18:08

So it's a limit order

Michael: 18:10

Mhmm.

Dave: 18:11

But you can set increments where it will scale in more shares at a certain amount. So you can say, get me in 500 shares at this level, but then 500 more shares at this other level. And that's all in one particular order. So where I've used this before is, a target order. Like, if I'm, you know, a profit target, and I want to get out half at a certain amount, but then the rest of the amount at a at an amount higher.

Dave: 18:49

I have used this before. You may know how I feel about scaling.

Michael: 18:54

I was about to actually bring that up.

Dave: 18:58

I don't use this as much as I do on the way out. I will use this on the way in sometimes. So if I'm using a limit order and I wanna, get in at a certain amount and then scale in when it go when it the price goes a little bit further. I wanna get in double, say. I will use this scale order to do that.

Dave: 19:17

And, you know, if you just think about the logic that you would have to program to make that work in your code with just a regular limit order I mean, multiple limit orders, that there there's a lot of logic there, and it's really easy to make a mistake in that logic. So this is a really nice order to be able to do, and it's just a it's just 2 or 3 different properties on the limit order with IB. It's real really, really cool order.

Michael: 19:45

Let's see. That's interesting. So, yeah, I'm thinking of, right off the bat, people who would trade revision to the mean strategies. You know? So you're looking to buy a little bit as as the market is overextended based off whatever metric you use and then maybe, you know, a little bit more if it ends up if it ends up pushing higher.

Michael: 20:04

And then as much as you don't like it for those people who do want to lock some in and and kinda walk away, I would be nice to just have a I'm gonna take a trade and then, you know, maybe half my profit target is here and the other half is right there, which that might be an argument that we actually have later. I do see some benefit mental if if nothing else of of that kind of scale approach. So, that's an interesting one, and I I never heard of it. And and you're right. I'd always done if I was going to scale in, I've always done it with just multiple orders.

Michael: 20:37

You know, you you send out a few different orders and then, you know, have them treated separately and you're right. That's, that's way more of a pain both manually and systematically to then, you know, have to track those individual orders with, individual because it could be, very possible that you have even the same profit target on 2 entries, and it gets there and it fills some of the position, but not all. And then, yeah, that creates a whole whole level of complexity. So, yeah, I didn't didn't know that was a thing at all. So it's a good one.

Dave: 21:09

Yeah. The other nice thing about this is it's not just you you can have multiple levels of the scaling. And, I don't think there's a limit or no real practical limit for doing that. It's all in this the same order type. The other nice thing about it is there's a pretty nifty little GUI in trader workstation that shows you that lets you visualize the different levels and how much is filled at each at each price.

Dave: 21:37

So it's a pretty cool tool they have in there.

Michael: 21:41

No. That's a good one. Alright. So what else? Actually, I'll go with mine just to

Dave: 21:47

Okay. Just to

Michael: 21:47

make sure I get mine in there. So I have one. I think this is IB specific as well and, maybe useful for day traders. I haven't really thought of a day trading, application for it, but for myself who's more, you know, swing trading and longer term, I use this one constantly, and it's just called good at time. And and it's kind of the opposite of what Dave was talking about in the last episode where, you know, you have a time stop that exits position, you know, it sends out a market order for any position you have out at a certain time.

Michael: 22:17

This is the other way around. So if you're someone who's swing trading and you like to buy stock at certain levels, so, you know, I like XYZ company if it breaks $10 a share and I just want to send out that order and have that order exist in the market like we talked about this kind of idea of of semi automation where even if it was completely discretionary pick, you wanna have the system just control all of it with stop loss, profit target, all that kind of stuff. The problem that happens a lot, and if anyone swing trades for any length of time, you know, is that opening 30 minutes is just insanity. You have these, you know, crazy moves one way or the other. So what often can happen is you have a stop limit out at a price that gets triggered and then the stock immediately reverses and, it's just I have found better overall to avoid the opening craziness of with these type of swing trades.

Michael: 23:09

So what you can do is you can say, I want you to put out that stop limit order to get me in if the stock breaks $10, but I don't want you to put it out until a certain time. So it's, like, good at at times. So for me, I do it all the time where I say, hey, after the first 30 minutes the market's done, put out this stop limit right here. If the price is above that, it turns it into a limit order. So if if it comes back down, it will fill me.

Michael: 23:32

If it's below that price, it makes it a stop limit. So if the price goes through it, then, then I get filled there as well. So not as complicated as a lot of these, but it's just, you know, the the regular stop limit or you could use a limit order or or even a market order. But as opposed to, you know, doing that, just letting it out there, you can sit out a certain time, whether it's even lunchtime. I could see an argument for not sending orders around lunchtime as well.

Michael: 24:01

But, yeah, it's a good one. I've used it with markets as well where I know I want to buy a stock on the open, but I know that spreads and everything can be craziness, so maybe you wait a minute. After the first minute, you send a market order or something when things tighten up. So that's mine that I brought.

Dave: 24:18

Yeah. I I I use that one a lot too. I I like your example of of getting in with it. There's another property, on those on any order type that you can use called good until time, which is the opposite. So it's good until a certain time.

Dave: 24:35

So it's kind of the same thing. And you can with Ivy, you can put those properties on any order. So it's just again, so much programming is saved by app being able to do that. It's server held. You don't have to have a timer locally in your code that's gonna fire and, you know, might not fire for some reason.

Dave: 24:54

And then you got an order stuck out there that you didn't realize. So it's just a really good way to, save a lot of programming again.

Michael: 25:04

Yeah. And why not let you know, just like we talked about even with the basic orders, why not let your broker handle it? Right? Why not, you know, why sit there and and wait for that amount of time? And I'm thinking more of the discretionary trader.

Michael: 25:16

Why sit there and wait for the opening to be done and then place your orders and then go about your day where you could do it the night before or the morning of or whenever you have time and you just set your orders and and walk away for that for that person that, again, is semi discretionary, and, you know, semi systematic. It's what I do a lot. Right? I spend the nights going through and generating trade ideas, try to figure out what to do, and then set out my orders and walk away. I'll, you know, check them whenever I have time.

Dave: 25:46

Yeah. Well, it's a good you know, it's something we've talked about in previous weeks of, setting reasonable defaults, having that as, you know, your default behavior that you're overriding rather than, you know, not having a default and having to be to have to remember to go do something in the market, which, you know, you're very likely to make mistakes. We all are.

Michael: 26:08

Absolutely.

Dave: 26:08

Yeah. I like that. Alright. So another IB order here is the accumulate distribute order.

Michael: 26:17

Yeah. Never heard of that guy.

Dave: 26:19

They call this one an algo, an algo order. But you it it basically is an adaptive order that allows you to take a large position or get out of a position a a large position over time. So you can set thresholds for, okay, I'm gonna start out at this price every x minutes. I'm gonna move it up by by price increment. K.

Dave: 26:48

And, so it's it adapts over time as it is filling or as the market goes away from you, so it gets maybe a little bit more aggressive over time. And that also is server held. And it's a pretty extensive order, and it's good for, you you know, like I said, getting in large positions without, you know, more intelligently.

Michael: 27:15

So it's it's almost like a like a market maker, I guess, in in a sense where it's constantly trying to just get filled small amounts as time goes by and adjusting it based off price, like a automated kind of market maker to a degree.

Dave: 27:31

Yeah. And you can, you know, you can customize those thresholds. And it's it's it is sort of like an automated market maker on your behalf.

Michael: 27:40

It's interesting.

Dave: 27:41

Yeah. It's a cool order.

Michael: 27:42

It was it's funny when, when I worked in when we were introducing ourselves, I talked I worked a long time with many different hedge funds. Right? And that's that's kinda what we did. And I noticed that from a broker standpoint, a lot of them used IB, and I didn't really question why too much, but it it a lot of it makes sense now with, you know, if you were a small fund, you know, small generally being, say, under 3 or $4,000,000,000 and you're trying to save costs on having an execution trader going in and and kind of manually doing this, it makes a lot of sense that, you know, if I'm trying to buy even from a fundamental point of view, you know, I like x y z company because I like the fundamentals of it, as opposed to outsourcing that order to an execution shop or x, you know, hiring my own trader to do it. All of these order types make a lot of sense where you could just get someone to say, okay.

Michael: 28:43

That's kind of what I I see from that type of order. Someone who's who is going to buy, you know, some small retail company or something anyway. They're just gonna do it. They're not really too concerned about price. They just want the shares, but they also don't wanna move the market.

Michael: 28:59

So these type of orders, they can just put in and say, okay. You know, let the system let the system handle all this craziness.

Dave: 29:07

Yep. So there's one more order type where it's actually a property you can put on, I believe, any order that is pretty interesting and and unique to IB again. So these are order conditions. There's several different conditions you can specify on an order that it it's sort of like the good after time where that you're specifying. Okay.

Dave: 29:33

If once this condition is met, then the order goes live. You can specify different order conditions before the order goes live. So for example, you can say when the price of another instrument reaches a certain threshold, then this goes live. So and there's several, like I said, several different conditions and you can do ands or ors, with them. It's a pretty extensive and fancy way to do to to implement a lot of logic right in the order type.

Dave: 30:08

And again, it's all server held. You can you can implement all these from the API. So it's a really interesting thing. I haven't used this a ton, but when I discovered this, I started thinking more about what I could do with them. And can you think of I think it's specifically about, you know, the price of a security that your order is not for.

Michael: 30:31

Mhmm.

Dave: 30:32

I imagine can you think of things where where you might wanna use that for, Michael?

Michael: 30:36

Well, 2 come to mind right away. And and, you know, something I'm playing with a lot with, my kind of swing trading algos is deciding, whether to be more trend following or whether to be more revision to the mean, in in the multiple systems I run. And one of the the experiments that I'm doing right now to try to change that is is by the price of the VIX. And this comes from a lot of traders that I know that essentially change their trading style based off of VIX values. Brian Lund is one who's, you know, he's been trading for a long time and I I had a chat with him And he talks about all the time that if the VIX is really high, he's a day trader because there's that opportunity there.

Michael: 31:19

It's worth it for him to to sit there and to do that. And then if the VIX is really, really low, he changes to be a swing trader. He's right? Because the market trends better generally when the when the VIX is low so I could think of that as a way to potentially alter what system you want to use and then also even potentially change the price in which you want to take the trade if the VIX is really really high you may get away with putting a limit more outside the market and if the VIX is really really low you may need to pay up a bit because you you lack that volatility and then other than that I could think of pairs trading right that's something that's I think, less prominent now, but people still do and they still profit from. And and just to explain to the audience, pairs trading is basically, I'm gonna trade Coke versus Pepsi.

Michael: 32:08

And if if something happens and Coke and Pepsi get too far misaligned, I'm gonna buy 1. I'm gonna short the other knowing that, net net, my risk isn't very high. Eventually, generally, these things, you know, will come back in. You're talking very, very small edges here. You're trying to, you know, buy these things that are very, very correlated when they become uncorrelated for a minute.

Michael: 32:30

I could see something like that. If you're if you're trying to trade, I guess, sympathy plays. Right? All semiconductors go up and you wanna send an order for this semiconductor because that semiconductor is moving or something like that.

Dave: 32:43

Yeah. I think those are, things to explore with it. But yeah. Yeah. Be list I'll be interested to hear if any listeners, have have heard of this or use them in their workflow.

Dave: 32:56

Yeah. I'd be interested to hear the use cases you have for them because I know there's some out there. I mean, they're pretty powerful concept just from a programmer's perspective. So I know there's some use use cases out there.

Michael: 33:07

Yeah.

Dave: 33:07

Yeah. Let me know how you use them.

Michael: 33:09

Well and it's one of those things. It's like, you see a a stupid warning label on something. Like, I remember I was traveling once for business, and there was, a warning label on an iron to say not to throw it at people. Like and you know that that's on there because that happened, and they had to they had to do it. And I some of these obscure orders are probably the same.

Michael: 33:30

Right? There's some, institution that walked into IB and said, yeah. We'll put our, you know, $50,000,000,000 with you guys to trade, but we need this specific thing for this specific reason, and then they they built it in. So that's how I look at some of these more obscure orders. There's definitely a use case.

Michael: 33:48

Somebody you know, they didn't just build it for fun. They had to put it in there. So the question is, you know, what was that fund doing? And and, you know, what what was the, what was the reason that they built it for? And if you can figure out that reason, maybe there's some edge there.

Michael: 34:05

And then maybe if you can find something that no one else is thinking of, maybe there's some edge there as well.

Dave: 34:10

Yeah. They didn't build it just to build it or just to have a fancy order type. They built it for a reason. And, you know, somebody had to do the work to do it. Somebody had to pay to do the work to do it.

Dave: 34:19

So there's definitely a reason to point.

Michael: 34:22

Absolutely.

Dave: 34:23

Alright. Well, I think, any parting thoughts here, Michael? You wanna wrap it up there?

Michael: 34:28

Yeah. I think that's a great place to wrap it up. We covered a whole bunch of order types. Thing I love about starting kind of with this topic is that for the people out there who aren't going to be interested in the backtesting and the quantitative side of of security selection still should get an insane amount of benefit out of just this, where now we're talking about ways that you can if you come up with a trading plan before the market opens, the night before, whatever, without coding to too much or or really anything, you can sit down and you can just set out your orders for the day with all of the types that we gave to and depending on liquidity and depending on all this, and then walk away. Right?

Michael: 35:09

If you've got a job, you know, whatever it is that you need to do, you go do that and and you know now that you can trade without actually being there, which, you know, I I I'll die on this hill that I think most people should, even if you're purely discretionary, you're you're way better off trading, having a system do all the stuff, watch every tick. I don't know. If I could get all of the hours back that I spent watching my p and l tick up and down for absolutely no reason, Yeah. You know, I I could I probably know, like, 5 languages right now if I use something useful with it. So this should really help just that if nothing else, I think.

Dave: 35:48

Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Lot of wasted hours staring at, you know, green and red numbers changing back and forth.

Michael: 35:57

Well, and I also I also wonder how many hours on the other side were was taken off my life just from seeing, oh, I'm up and, oh, now I'm down, and then I'm back up again. I'm down as opposed to just right Yeah. Go exercise, go spend time with your family, go do literally anything else, and then come back at the end of the day and and do a postmortem on what happened and and kinda go from there. So listen, appreciate everyone as always for tuning in. We'll be back same time, same place next week.

Michael: 36:28

You know, make sure you're following wherever you see this place so you you get the next episode, and and we'll talk to you then. Bye.